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In the Garden, Jesus expressed His desire for the Father to be with Him and then prayed for the cup (His ultimate sacrifice) to lifted from Him. His prayers were so intense that He sweat drops of blood. He acquiesced to the will of the Father after all this was done. This is the significance of the prayers in Gethsemane. There was no atonement for sins here, just fervent prayers. This is according to the non-LDS interpretation.
His death on the Cross was the true sacrifice. Here, He took upon Himself all the sins of the world. In the OT times, an animal had to be sacrificed for each sin and animals covered different sins. Christ's death on the Cross was the sacrifice for each and every one of us; the debt of sin was paid there. When we accept Christ as our Savior, His death atones for our sins and we are therefore, acceptable to God. We now enter into a personal relationship with Him in a way that was not possible before.
I probably missed some points so if anyone else would care to elaborate, please do.
Yes, but being God, he could do these things at will. Being omniscient, God already has the knowledge of pain (as well as knowledge of every other experience). If we examine the phenomenon of pain, we see that it serves a purpose. We would not survive without the pain response. Associating a survival instinct with God makes no sense.
NVX, ever read Memnoch the Devil by Anne Rice? It deals with this very question in detail. An interesting read, even if I don't agree with her conclusions.
I think I see your point...Jesus took on a human body and experienced everything a human would experience, but you feel because He knew He was Divine, this ultimately was just superficial, or for ritual's sake.
To flip your question on it's head, what do you think happened on the cross? Jesus was also tortured on the cross, He didn't "just" die. What leads you to believe that the actual atonement happened in the Garden, and not the cross?
To answer your question, I believe that the experience in the Garden, the stripes on his back, carrying the cross, and then the cross...all of it is a part of Christ's work for us.
I absolutely agree. Everything Christ did in his life, was a sacrifice and example for us. I acknowledge all that he did for us. As I said before... I believe that Jesus felt the sins of all mankind, in the Garden of Gethsemane. I believe he suffered great physical agony from being crucified. Of course he sacrificed his life for us. But I believe that Jesus had to die, to show that he could overcome death, so that we may overcome death one day, as well. I think that his death and resurrection go hand in hand. He had to die, so that he might live again. It is all part of God's plan.
So while I believe that the cross was part of Jesus's over all sacrifice, I also believe that the sins of the world were felt by him, in the Garden of Gethsemane. However... the scriptures I would show to support my beliefs... will be from the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price. If you would like me to list them, I will. However... most people outside the LDS faith, don't consider those accurate sciptural references, so there may be no point in me sharing them here.
I guess the thing we all have in common here... is that we believe in the atonement of Christ. I am sure we could argue all day about our views on where certain things happened. However... I don't really want to argue about such a sacred thing. I respect other people's opinions, but I will hold tight to mine.
People talk about all the suffering that Jesus went through but he was not the only person to have been crucified. It wasn't like Pontius Pilot sat down and thought up the best way to kill this Jesus guy. This was a very common means of execution in that day and Jesus suffered no more than any other person who was crucified throughout history. My question is: Why did God set his son up for the most brutal, twisted, painful method of execution available? Couldn't he have settled for a nice quick beheading or Saddam style hanging?
At that time, crucifying was the most painful ,undignified, tortuous way to die. Remember that the road was always lined with the stinking, bloated rotting bodies of crucified criminals. God predestined sending Jesus during this particular time, so as I said ,crucifing was the execution means then.
People talk about all the suffering that Jesus went through but he was not the only person to have been crucified. It wasn't like Pontius Pilot sat down and thought up the best way to kill this Jesus guy. This was a very common means of execution in that day and Jesus suffered no more than any other person who was crucified throughout history. My question is: Why did God set his son up for the most brutal, twisted, painful method of execution available? Couldn't he have settled for a nice quick beheading or Saddam style hanging?
Why does forgiveness require the shedding of blood? This is no arbitrary decree on the part of a bloodthirsty God, as some might suggest. There is no greater symbol of life than blood, blood keeps us alive. Jesus shed His blood, gave His life for our sins so that we wouldn't have to experience spiritual death, eternal separation from God. Jesus is the source of life, not death. Yes other people were crucified before Jesus and after Jesus, but only Jesus was sinless, He is the only one who take our sins away.
Why does forgiveness require the shedding of blood? This is no arbitrary decree on the part of a bloodthirsty God, as some might suggest. There is no greater symbol of life than blood, blood keeps us alive. Jesus shed His blood, gave His life for our sins so that we wouldn't have to experience spiritual death, eternal separation from God. Jesus is the source of life, not death. Yes other people were crucified before Jesus and after Jesus, but only Jesus was sinless, He is the only one who take our sins away.
So because Jesus didn't commit a sin to be crucified he is the only one?? Well, what about the innocent people in America who have been put to death via the electric chair that were innocent? What about infants who have been killed by their parents?
So because Jesus didn't commit a sin to be crucified he is the only one?? Well, what about the innocent people in America who have been put to death via the electric chair that were innocent? What about infants who have been killed by their parents?
All humans are born with a sin nature, no one could take away ours sins but Jesus, He is God, He is perfect, He is sinless. And by the way it wasn't the crucifixion that killed Jesus, it was taking on sin of the WHOLE WORLD of everyone who every had or every will live.
2 Corinthians 5:21 "For God made Christ who never sinned to be the offering for sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ".
Yes I was speaking from a Latter-Day Saint perspective on the atonement. Hence the reason I stated that it was "my understanding of Christ's atonement."
Just out of curiousity... for those that believe the sin debt was paid on the cross.... what do you believe happened in the Garden of Gethsemane then??? Christ's emotional suffering was so great there, that his suffering became physical as well.
I am sorry if I offended you by mentioning your denomination, I just wanted nvxplorer to have as much info as possible, and by knowing your denomination I felt it would be easier for to look up more info.
I used to go to an LDS Church, even though I never became a member
so I am not trying to be mean.
I am also sorry it took me so long to respond to you. I have been really busy.
Jesus knew what was about to happen to him and this of course gave him an extreme amount of stress. There is a medical condition known as hematidrosis
the chemicals that our bodies produce when we are stressed can at certain levels cause capillaries to break down in our bodies which can cause you to sweat blood. It is not very common but it does happen to ordinary people.
So the blood coming out of Jesus in the garden could very well have been a natural event.
I believe that what happened at the garden was certainly significant, because it showed his humanity with his suffering, and showed that he knew what was going to happen to him, and if he had truly wanted to he could have gotten away in time to save himself. He loved us enough that he was willing to bear unspeakable torture for us.
The wages of sin is death, and to my knowledge hematidrosis has never killed anyone. Therefore he wasn't paying our sin debt when he was in the garden, that did not happen till the cross.
If the cross had only been important because he had to die to be resurrected
he could have experienced a thousand less painful deaths. Suicide by cop comes to mind. If he had not calmed down his followers the soilders would have just killed him with a sword, which is less painfull and takes less time then the cross.
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
God 'gave' or sacrificed if you will, his only begotten Son to die for our sins.
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