What Was Sacrificed? (hell, worship, Christianity, God)

[Calibelle]

Originally Posted by wzippler

I am sorry if I offended you by mentioning your denomination, I just wanted nvxplorer to have as much info as possible, and by knowing your denomination I felt it would be easier for to look up more info.
I used to go to an LDS Church, even though I never became a member
so I am not trying to be mean.

Hey, in no way did you offend me Trust me, it would take a lot more than mentioning my religion, to offend me! Thanx for sharing your views and thoughts.

[SamAntone]

The original question seems to evoke a philosophical response. At least that's the way I see it. I'm LDS, but I've also read a lot of philosophical motives into this concept called religion, though I'm not a pro. So I'd like to give my arm-chair philosophical view concerning the idea of sacrifice:

To begin with, I'd like to say that I don't necessarily believe my philosophical views to be truth, nor do I expect anyone else to believe them. I'm merely theorizing to help put across the idea that there are countless explanations of why we exist and why history has taken the course we now regard as "the past," and that we may not even be close to having the answer. The main thing I'd like to say, though, is that we do seem to exist, and there does seem to be a "karma" or unspoken law that some type of sacrifice seems to make us stronger.

Resistance is a type of sacrifice. We cannot build muscles without resistance. We cannot grow intellectually without resistance. We cannot gain a greater resolve without first experiencing failure.

When people ask questions about why God does this or that, I can't begin to know his motives. The closest I can come is when I put myself (excuse the hints of grandeur) in his shoes.

So, let's suppose that I am a sentient entity. I have existed for ever, and my tenure in the eternities--having exercised thought processes all that time--has made me able to reason and remember the conclusions I've made. More thought, and the exercise thereof, has caused me to embark upon plans to improve my state. My power grows through extended time. I somehow learn to create matter. Suddenly, I get the idea to reproduce myself. Then I some day distance myself enough from my offspring to the point of making him/her independent. Because of distancing, I invent a way to communicate, other than by telepathy. Then, I invent a way to see that offspring.

All this, when you think of it, shows highly creative thought, because these things have never been thought of before; they're revolutionary, and are great ideas as well. My true-life experience has taught me that coming up with something on your own that is completely new and non-existent before-hand is an exhilarating experience. I'm not sure I can claim such a level of innovation, but I've achieved a lower level, and even that has brought on a high better than the drugs I've experienced. Why? I don't know, but it does.

So I think we can assume that God has experienced pure joy.

What is our natural tendency when we find happiness in something? We wish to share it, right? The first time I saw Mount Rushmore I was traveling alone. I had no one to share it with. I felt lonely and like something was missing. I think the same can happen with a sentient being who has just learned how to reproduce and raise children.

But if you divide yourself right in half, you're going to have another you, who knows all you know. That's not fun; your child won't know the joy of creating new things, and you could fight with him/her over who should do the bossing.

You, therefore, need to cause your children to forget everything, live in a place much inferior to the place you have created, and then they will have the opportunity to experience the same type of joy you have, by learning, by growing, by figuring things out on their own.

After a while, your children will become complacent, and get used to the dark and awful place they're living in. So opposition must be introduced. This opposition will cause problems that will result in growth, as the children find ways to overcome it.

The love of people will grow cold, as well, and they will begin to think more of themselves. This will deter creative thought and innovation. But if they can be inspired to give of themselves, the mere act of sacrifice can help the child to learn how to love better. When a person does something for themselves to satisfy a selfish tendency, there seems to be no reward in that. But when they've made a difference in someone else's lives, and they can see that, and get credit for it, there is greater joy.

One way to inspire "sacrifice" is teach it through symbolism. Also, you can see to the sacrifice of an "innocent" "example." You can call it an atonement, or some other name, but the important thing is to move the hearts of people through showing them such injustice, in order to move them toward more noble persuits.

As it's quite late, I rushed through this. It doesn't flow well, and it's not all there, but I think you can see my point. If you wish further examples or clarification, let me know. I may have left something out in my rush to get this done so I can go to bed.

Or, I'm sure you have the intelligence to fill in the blanks.

[aaronbm83]

I too am LDS. I would like to do my best to answer your question.

First lets think about Justice and Mercy.

Justice is the unchanging law that brings consequences for actions. Because of the law of justice, you receive blessings when you obey God’s commandments. The law of justice also demands that a penalty be paid for every sin you commit. It requires that no unclean thing be permitted to dwell with God.

So how can justice be demanded and Mercy be given at the same time? If our debts are being paid to God to bring forth Justice is it possible for God to pay this debt? He is the one we are indebted to if he paid the debt than there would be no Justice. So how do we bring forth Justice and Mercy? God is merciful through Jesus Christ.

When the Savior carried out the Atonement, He took our sins upon Himself. He was able to “answer the ends of the law” because He subjected Himself to the penalty that the law required for our sins. In doing so, He “satisfied the demands of justice” and extended mercy to everyone who repents and follows Him. Because He has paid the price for your sins, you will not have to suffer that punishment if you repent

I believe these two laws can also provide proof that Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father are two separate beings.

[Miss Blue]

Gods son was sacrificed as the ultimate perfectly sinless, unblemished, unworldly sacrifice..There is no better sacrifice for sin other than Gods son....It broke the ot law of the sacrificial unblemished best lamb that was an offered sacrifice for forgiveness of sin..The sacrifice allowed us to have direct access to God without having to go through the temple rituals..The sacrifice of Christ was the beginning of the new covenant..Which allows us ALL to be Gods chosen people, and gives us the right to be called His children.
As usual this is only my humble opinion..

[Fighting For Air]

Originally Posted by GCSTroop

People talk about all the suffering that Jesus went through but he was not the only person to have been crucified. It wasn't like Pontius Pilot sat down and thought up the best way to kill this Jesus guy. This was a very common means of execution in that day and Jesus suffered no more than any other person who was crucified throughout history. My question is: Why did God set his son up for the most brutal, twisted, painful method of execution available? Couldn't he have settled for a nice quick beheading or Saddam style hanging?

The physical pain from the torure and subsequent death on the cross was relatively nothing compared to the emotional and physical agony he must have felt as the sin debt of the entire world was poured out on him. Imagine all the guilt, shame, remorse, sorrow, bitterness, etc that would come from all the world's wrongs from the beginning of time through the end all being poured on you in one moment. He became sin our on our behalf.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by Fighting For Air

Imagine all the guilt, shame, remorse, sorrow, bitterness, etc that would come from all the world's wrongs from the beginning of time through the end all being poured on you in one moment.

This is all speculation, because everyone is capable of feeling this.
Most people who are deeply depressed feel as if they are carrying the weight of the world upon their shoulders and the majority who feel this succumb to utter despair.

Since you cannot measure pain and sorrow, you cannot claim that Jesus' pain was greater than others.
You simply cannot claim that Jesus' pain was greater than that of Mandela who was imprisoned because he fought against apartheid in South Africa.
The only reason Mandela wasn't killed by the SA government is because they did not want to turn Mandela into the martyr Jesus was.
The SA government understood that a dead & martyred Mandela would be more trouble than alive.

[Campbell34]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

Originally Posted by Fighting For Air This is all speculation, because everyone is capable of feeling this.
Most people who are deeply depressed feel as if they are carrying the weight of the world upon their shoulders and the majority who feel this succumb to utter despair.

Since you cannot measure pain and sorrow, you cannot claim that Jesus' pain was greater than others.
You simply cannot claim that Jesus' pain was greater than that of Mandela who was imprisoned because he fought against apartheid in South Africa.
The only reason Mandela wasn't killed by the SA government is because they did not want to turn Mandela into the martyr Jesus was.
The SA government understood that a dead & martyred Mandela would be more trouble than alive.

Being imprisoned is one thing, having your beard torn off your face, and nails pounded through your hands and feet would be a little more painful then a stay in prison.

[calmdude]

Within the last month, there was a program in Discovery Channel about torture. They showed many forms of torture used by all religions and rulers in the olden times. Those times were truly barbaric. Nailing a person to the cross and making an example of out them was actually very common in the region at that time. Another popular way for slow death was to "seat" a live person on a sharp stick and let him slowly die. Thousands of people were killed with these brutal ways, it was no big deal (then).
... just putting a historical perspective to this, not challenging the reasoning for crucification.

[Fighting For Air]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

Originally Posted by Fighting For Air This is all speculation, because everyone is capable of feeling this.
Most people who are deeply depressed feel as if they are carrying the weight of the world upon their shoulders and the majority who feel this succumb to utter despair.

Since you cannot measure pain and sorrow, you cannot claim that Jesus' pain was greater than others.
You simply cannot claim that Jesus' pain was greater than that of Mandela who was imprisoned because he fought against apartheid in South Africa.
The only reason Mandela wasn't killed by the SA government is because they did not want to turn Mandela into the martyr Jesus was.
The SA government understood that a dead & martyred Mandela would be more trouble than alive.

True, it is just speculation, but your example is not realistic. You cannot rightly compare one person's guilt shame or sorrow over one act to what it would be like to experience all the guilt shame and sorrow for every wrongful act from every person throughout all time all at once. That is pain on a whole new level.

[scdreamer]

For the "ritual" view of this killing to make sense, wouldn't the killers themselves need to believe that they were offering Jesus as a sacrifice?
I never got the sense that Pilate or the soldiers were acting in a religious context with this torture.

But even if it were a sacrifice, that would mean that God was offering Jesus as a sacrifice to...himself? If God wanted to forgive mankind, wouldn't it have been a greater sign of love to just forgive us and not require a blood sacrifice in the first place?