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Old 09-10-2008, 09:58 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 6,590,351 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Being imprisoned for life is more stressful than being dead.
Besidez, it is more torturous to be imprisoned and not knowing when you’ll be released than it is to be imprisoned and know exactly when you’ll be released (or sentenced to death).
Remember, most Christians are speaking from the point of view that the punishment for all the sins of mankind (for all time) were placed upon Jesus so simple case against case comparative suffering scenarios don't really apply unless you through that out first.

My personal view (as a believer in Jesus) is that He did not and would not claim to have suffered greater than the rest of humanity. In fact I think He had comforts and strength by virtue of His spiritual stature which made His suffering more tolerable (ie: "the joy set before him") than it would be for the average person.

The point was the LOVE He showed in humbling Himself to that fate and revealing to us the true nature of our Father.
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Old 09-11-2008, 05:32 AM
 
Location: PA
2,595 posts, read 4,428,865 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Most Christians consider His death to be the most unjust of all because of His absolute innocence. I would argue back that the murder of a child is equally unjust. I also believe Jesus would agree with me.

We have no record of Jesus claiming to have suffered more than others.

The traditional view of atonement basically holds to the concept of an unforgiving God who MUST PUNISH SIN and who is hell bent on getting His pound of flesh one way or another (payback justice). I'm sure under this view Jesus did suffer more than anyone as He was beat up by the 'wrath of God' in direct proportion to all the sins ever committed by all humans - past, present and future.

Here's the dilemma. We have a Son who is the exact image and nature of the Father healing and forgiving sins and hanging out with lost folks (prostitutes/drunks/tax collectors) without batting an eye - but when those same sins are put upon Jesus suddenly the Father 'cannot look upon sin' and forsakes Jesus?

So in truth, by the traditional view, there was not forgiveness - only full payment. But since the payment was made by Himself, then it is considered forgiveness. Got it?

But if you don't accept it - oooops.

I propose that the sense of separation is on man's part, not God's part. That we have become 'enemies in our minds' to the ways of God and that God did not need to be reconciled to us - but us to Him.

The religion of Christianity perpetuates this concept of an angry God who cannot be appeased (except by payback justice) as opposed to the true Fatherly nature of God who indeed 'looks upon sin' everyday and realizes it's a disease to be freed from, not deeds to be condemned for.

Ironic, no?
You are correct that God can look upon sin. It says that God sees everything so why would he have to turn his back on Jesus. It is written in Joshua 1:9: "Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the LORD thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest." Further the bible says by the psalmist, "if I make my bed in hell, you are there." So God cannot leave us and he never left Jesus. The reason that Pentecostals say that God turned his back on Jesus is because they could not understand why Jesus said "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me" when he was on the cross. It was not that he was forsaken by God, but rather he was quoting scripture, specifically Psalms 22. This is how the Psalm begins. The Psalm ends with "it is finished" or sometimes translated "it is done" or something to that effect which is what Jesus said on the cross. So, what Jesus was saying was scripture and he meant all of Psalms 22. If you read this scripture you will find that this verse explains all of the crucifixion of christ. Telling is verse 16: "For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet." It is not that pentecostals are evil, it is just they did not understand the words of Christ so someone came up with this idea. It has been proven to be incorrect and so we must throw out the old ideas for the new revelations. However, there are many missunderstanding and they continue to prepetuate. I always hear people says that Elisha went up into heaven in a "chariot of fire." Some one made this mistake along time ago and because we are evil in nature we prepetuate the lie. He went to heave in a Wirlwind, and a chariot of fire went between Elisha and Elijah in an attempt to distract Elisah so he could not receive the mantle (anointing) of Elijah.

There has always been forgiveness. But the law came and through the law we had to pay for our crimes. Since Christ died on the cross and paid the price required by the law then he paid once for all. That goes both ways in time. Adam and Eve received atonement through the blood of Jesus Christ. What God sacrificed for Adam and Eve was a lamb, which represented Christ from the begining. That is why Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. The foundation of the world is in Genesis.
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Old 09-11-2008, 08:18 AM
 
4,173 posts, read 6,667,191 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
You are correct that God can look upon sin. It says that God sees everything so why would he have to turn his back on Jesus. It is written in Joshua 1:9: "Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the LORD thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest." Further the bible says by the psalmist, "if I make my bed in hell, you are there." So God cannot leave us and he never left Jesus. The reason that Pentecostals say that God turned his back on Jesus is because they could not understand why Jesus said "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me" when he was on the cross. It was not that he was forsaken by God, but rather he was quoting scripture, specifically Psalms 22. This is how the Psalm begins. The Psalm ends with "it is finished" or sometimes translated "it is done" or something to that effect which is what Jesus said on the cross. So, what Jesus was saying was scripture and he meant all of Psalms 22. If you read this scripture you will find that this verse explains all of the crucifixion of christ. Telling is verse 16: "For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet." It is not that pentecostals are evil, it is just they did not understand the words of Christ so someone came up with this idea. It has been proven to be incorrect and so we must throw out the old ideas for the new revelations. However, there are many missunderstanding and they continue to prepetuate. I always hear people says that Elisha went up into heaven in a "chariot of fire." Some one made this mistake along time ago and because we are evil in nature we prepetuate the lie. He went to heave in a Wirlwind, and a chariot of fire went between Elisha and Elijah in an attempt to distract Elisah so he could not receive the mantle (anointing) of Elijah.

There has always been forgiveness. But the law came and through the law we had to pay for our crimes. Since Christ died on the cross and paid the price required by the law then he paid once for all. That goes both ways in time. Adam and Eve received atonement through the blood of Jesus Christ. What God sacrificed for Adam and Eve was a lamb, which represented Christ from the begining. That is why Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. The foundation of the world is in Genesis.
Is there a shorter to-the-point version? You seem to have ignored what the poster asked you.
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Old 09-11-2008, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Boise
2,008 posts, read 3,316,309 times
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Not to sound like a jerk, but jesus wasn't the only guy to hang on a cross. There were plenty of people, with only one life (IE who didn't know without a doubt where they were going when all was said and done) who were executed for the same reasons as our bronze age hippie friend. If you ask me they put their oats on the chopping block a lot more. But besides that, how is it that he paid for all our sins through his suffering when hundreds (if not thousands) of others suffered just as much without the security of knowing?
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Old 09-11-2008, 11:04 AM
 
249 posts, read 608,147 times
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Cleatis, read the previous posts ... that's what people have been discussing in the preceeding pages.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cleatis View Post
Not to sound like a jerk, but jesus wasn't the only guy to hang on a cross. There were plenty of people, with only one life (IE who didn't know without a doubt where they were going when all was said and done) who were executed for the same reasons as our bronze age hippie friend. If you ask me they put their oats on the chopping block a lot more. But besides that, how is it that he paid for all our sins through his suffering when hundreds (if not thousands) of others suffered just as much without the security of knowing?
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Old 09-11-2008, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
897 posts, read 2,451,973 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
What was sacrificed on the cross?

I have a difficult time understanding how sacrifice applies to an omnipotent and omniscient being.

The only applicable definition I see is that of ritualistic sacrifice. Is this the meaning? Was Jesus sacrificed to appease God as the Jews offered animals for the same reason?
The Christian answer is :
Jesus died on the cross to wipe away the sins of the believer so that one day we may have everlasting life. The blood is used to atone for ones sins.
The Jewish answer Is:
Jesus Died on the cross because he was a criminal. The crime that the new testament states is that he was going to change gods laws and destroy the temple. Which to Jews is a high crime to speak against god. The Romans consider him a threat because of his public message. The Romans sentence him to death by crucifixion. Jesus was a man so he could not atone for your sins because all men are suppose to go to God directly for atonement. The blood atonement for sins is supposed to be done by a high priest and in the temple. The animals is supposed to be the very best of the group with no injuries or damages with them. So Jesus could not atone for one sins because he was whipped by the guards(injuries), Second his blood was not sacrificed at the temple by a priest.(no blood at the temple) Also it is an affront to God to hang a person on a tree or cross.
If you want all the biblical references I would be happy to give them.
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Old 09-11-2008, 01:49 PM
 
1,573 posts, read 4,051,278 times
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The idea that God needs a blood sacrifice to satiate his bloodlust and justice does not sit well with me.

Also, the Garden of Gethsemanee... is Jesus pleading with God for his life? I've read that scene alot of times in the Bible but it is a bit of a mystery.

Last edited by Magnulus; 09-11-2008 at 02:02 PM..
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Old 09-11-2008, 02:25 PM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
897 posts, read 2,451,973 times
Reputation: 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnulus View Post
The idea that God needs a blood sacrifice to satiate his bloodlust and justice does not sit well with me.

Also, the Garden of Gethsemanee... is Jesus pleading with God for his life? I've read that scene alot of times in the Bible but it is a bit of a mystery.
Well I think it is to show how committed you are to God. You do not need a blood atonement because he says he will accept your prayers.

The garden puzzles me a little too. Why did god need to pray to god. Second if he already knew his fate, than why did he have a thought to get out of it in the last moments.
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