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Chapter 9.. proof of Jesus' existence, and authenticity of the NT.
There are many books that examine the evidence for Jesus' existence. 2 books that examine all the evidence, are "The Jesus Puzzle", and "The Christ Conspiracy", (the latter of which is always sure to raise an eyebrow of the person sitting next to you on the bus!). Both come to the conclusion that the biblical Jesus did not exist. The authors state on page 222 that there are ten mentions of Jesus' existence in writings within 150 years of his life (his first or second life I'm unsure).. anyway, all of these writings are by Roman authors... I wonder why? The non-Christian sources only mention the emperor in power at the time of Jesus???? and that is what.. evidence, am I missing something here
Now, If Jesus had a brother, was that brother the son of someone other than God therefore taking Mary's virginity, or, was that person also the son of God? This is all to much for my small brain to cope with. Would James's father have a legal claim on part of the universe? And where are his descendents now.. they must have claim to enourmous realty rights!
I love the stuff about the OT writings. The authors did a very good job of showing that we not only do NOT have the original writings, but they were written by 9 different authors, and then copied thousands of times. How we can even conclude that these writings are authentic and unlock some of the greatest mysteries of our universe is beyond reason. And how do the authors know when the originals were written if they have never been found? You could of course argue that they would have been written around the time of Jesus.. but that is if he ever existed. We only think he existed because of the copied manuscripts.
Look, if Jesus was able to accurately predict future events in the bible, why is there no information about todays world. Why isn't there a single passage in the bible that says "in the early 21st century, man will create a machine that will be capable of flight", or "in the 21st century there will be a new technology that will enable humans to communicate without bottles or carrier pigeons. This communication tool will be called 'the internet". The predictions that Jesus made were recorded after they happened.
On page 224 the authors second quesiton is "do these documents speak the truth". There is absolutely no evidence in this chapter to prove any biblical history. The authors don't even attempt to, why? Why don't they talk about the great flood, or the parting of the red sea, or anything for that matter? Because there is no evidence. The authors merely drone on about the age of the documents... wow I'm blown away. They claim that people didn't write about Jesus at the time because they were illiterate. Why didn't Jesus write anything then?? Could there possibly be an illiterate God?
The examples in history that have been quoted (pearl harbor, 9/11, Equal Rights etc) that can been accepted by every man, woman and child as factual history, and not even remotely close to the example of NT authenticity. An explanation of why would be patronizing for those of you who have the ability to think.
Chapter 9.. proof of Jesus' existence, and authenticity of the NT.
There are many books that examine the evidence for Jesus' existence. 2 books that examine all the evidence, are "The Jesus Puzzle", and "The Christ Conspiracy", (the latter of which is always sure to raise an eyebrow of the person sitting next to you on the bus!). Both come to the conclusion that the biblical Jesus did not exist. The authors state on page 222 that there are ten mentions of Jesus' existence in writings within 150 years of his life (his first or second life I'm unsure).. anyway, all of these writings are by Roman authors... I wonder why? The non-Christian sources only mention the emperor in power at the time of Jesus???? and that is what.. evidence, am I missing something here
Now, If Jesus had a brother, was that brother the son of someone other than God therefore taking Mary's virginity, or, was that person also the son of God? This is all to much for my small brain to cope with. Would James's father have a legal claim on part of the universe? And where are his descendents now.. they must have claim to enourmous realty rights!
I love the stuff about the OT writings. The authors did a very good job of showing that we not only do NOT have the original writings, but they were written by 9 different authors, and then copied thousands of times. How we can even conclude that these writings are authentic and unlock some of the greatest mysteries of our universe is beyond reason. And how do the authors know when the originals were written if they have never been found? You could of course argue that they would have been written around the time of Jesus.. but that is if he ever existed. We only think he existed because of the copied manuscripts.
Look, if Jesus was able to accurately predict future events in the bible, why is there no information about todays world. Why isn't there a single passage in the bible that says "in the early 21st century, man will create a machine that will be capable of flight", or "in the 21st century there will be a new technology that will enable humans to communicate without bottles or carrier pigeons. This communication tool will be called 'the internet". The predictions that Jesus made were recorded after they happened.
On page 224 the authors second quesiton is "do these documents speak the truth". There is absolutely no evidence in this chapter to prove any biblical history. The authors don't even attempt to, why? Why don't they talk about the great flood, or the parting of the red sea, or anything for that matter? Because there is no evidence. The authors merely drone on about the age of the documents... wow I'm blown away. They claim that people didn't write about Jesus at the time because they were illiterate. Why didn't Jesus write anything then?? Could there possibly be an illiterate God?
The examples in history that have been quoted (pearl harbor, 9/11, Equal Rights etc) that can been accepted by every man, woman and child as factual history, and not even remotely close to the example of NT authenticity. An explanation of why would be patronizing for those of you who have the ability to think.
Unhappily onto 10....
Interesting post. As devout of an atheist that I am, I have a difficult time conceding the fact that so much ruckus was caused over a non-existent person. I think I can accept the fact that Jesus was a man and only a man. I just wrote on another post that I did find it incredulous to KNOW the Immaculate Conception happened. Don't you? After all, how would anyone really know? Any man I know would not go around going "Hey guess what? My wife is pregnant and I didn't sleep with her! Isn't that wonderful?!" I seriously doubt it. And I know I'm going to make some people made when I say this, but if Joseph didn't sleep with Mary than someone else did. Boy, she had the greatest excuse of all time. "I didn't cheat, he's just the son of God!". Of course, rearing a child to believe this to stick with your side of the story could only do wonders for the boy. "Don't worry young Jesus, no matter what anyone tells you, you are the Son of God." It's not that hard to really conceive as happening if you really think about it.
Interesting post. As devout of an atheist that I am, I have a difficult time conceding the fact that so much ruckus was caused over a non-existent person. I think I can accept the fact that Jesus was a man and only a man. I just wrote on another post that I did find it incredulous to KNOW the Immaculate Conception happened. Don't you? After all, how would anyone really know? Any man I know would not go around going "Hey guess what? My wife is pregnant and I didn't sleep with her! Isn't that wonderful?!" I seriously doubt it. And I know I'm going to make some people made when I say this, but if Joseph didn't sleep with Mary than someone else did. Boy, she had the greatest excuse of all time. "I didn't cheat, he's just the son of God!". Of course, rearing a child to believe this to stick with your side of the story could only do wonders for the boy. "Don't worry young Jesus, no matter what anyone tells you, you are the Son of God." It's not that hard to really conceive as happening if you really think about it.
Right, and his ability to perform miracles is a common ability illegitimate children have. And it's equally common for these illegitimate children to make such an impact on an era that we talk about them, write books about them, yes, even devote internet threads to them, 2000 years after they lived.
Sure, I'll buy that.
What you are expecting me to believe is that Jesus is the greatest hoax the world has ever seen. As this book title says and all it's set out to state, I don't have enough faith to believe that. Some may, I don't.
Right, and his ability to perform miracles is a common ability illegitimate children have. And it's equally common for these illegitimate children to make such an impact on an era that we talk about them, write books about them, yes, even devote internet threads to them, 2000 years after they lived.
Sure, I'll buy that.
What you are expecting me to believe is that Jesus is the greatest hoax the world has ever seen. As this book title says and all it's set out to state, I don't have enough faith to believe that. Some may, I don't.
What I'm saying is that we perceive someone like David Blaine as a great magician. Or Kriss Angel or David Copperfield. They all perform tricks that with no other explanation available could all be construed as God-like. Kriss Angel walked across two buildings. The thing was there was nothing but thin air in between the two buildings. That's right he walked from rooftop to rooftop with nothing visible. Yet, he did it. He also walked down the side of one of the Venetian hotel in Casino. Standing up. Does that mean he is the Son of God? NO! It means he's good at magic tricks. I don't see why Jesus couldn't do the same thing. I wonder how any of the three magicians I just mentioned would be perceived in the ancient world. Throw that on top of some good speeches about why they should be good to each other and I think you're looking at the next Son of God. I'm saying Jesus was a hoax. A real man, yes. A worker of miracles, absolutely NOT.
Of course Jesus is the foundation for the Christian belief and his existence needs to be addressed if this particular religion is supposed to be the only true religion. I happen to believe that Jesus was a real human being and it seems extremely unlikely that somehow a mythological person would have been created without some basis in fact. It's true that we can identify historical locations and influential figures in history who play a role in the life of Jesus so he does seem to fit into the historical record as an authentic and important figure. The part that I don't believe is the virgin birth, the miracles he is said to have performed, and his resurrection. I believe he was possibly the most influential figure in human history but when all is said and done he did not come back from the dead because he was a mortal man. I think he must have been an exceptionally gifted communicator and leader and his life set in motion one of the world's most popular religions. However, despite the efforts of the authors to prove his divinity, no one has ever been able to prove such a thing and it remains to this day as a matter of faith.
Chapter 8..Thank you God, finally a chapter that I don't have any trouble understanding IMO the authors make a good points on theism vs polytheism by usingthe arguements in the past chapters,..I do not agree that only one of the three major Theistics religions are right, I just cannot accept the idea that only christians know the truth, because of the bible. He communicates to the world through nature and the good actions of people of all faiths ,cultures, and God communicates with us through modern science. On the subject of miracles. They do a really great job of the description of miracles that were performed by some of the old testament characters in order to prove this God that none knew. Jesus performed miracles to prove he was the messiah who was predicted in the old testament. The apostles performed miracles in the new testament in the beginnings of the church..God gave them that ability, in order to fullfill more prophecy about the beginnings of christianity..I don't believe that miracles (as the true description of a miracle) occurr today. We don't need them because the church is established and we have the Bible to use to refer to so we can understand the beginnings and to sustain our faith. I agree 100% that there is no reason for God to perform any miracles today, because everything has been fulfilled except the second coming of Christ.
Hi folks. I’ve been reading your updates on and off (so much for a hiatus . . . but I haven’t posted). I don’t think I’ll finish the book. I made it through Chapter 10 and have since decided to give away the book. It’s been a struggle since the Introduction. For me, it’s been an unconvincing book and, unfortunately, hasn't give me anything new to think about. I’m going back to ‘War and Peace’. I’ve especially appreciated some of the Christian insights/reflections/take on the book, even though this book, from the outset, is so blatantly targeted for the Christian believer and one who has faith. Have a great time with your continued discussions and maybe we’ll chat in another thread. I think I’ll try ‘Travel” or ‘Food’ . . . much less controversial. Oh . . . I looked through the photo thread – you’re a nice looking crowd. Good reading.
Hi my name is Sharon and I am the offspring of a man called David. I was born in a little town called ISA in the year '61. I have an invisible friend and we have found we have many things in common. LOL because not a word of what I just wrote is a lie. This is how I come to be here reading more about religion and I for one would like to read your selected books on both the christion and the athiest view.
Sorry guys, due to some personal reasons, I have to drop out of the book challenge, but will finish this book and the next to further my learning and curiosity about this Dawkins guy, whose name is almost the same as Darwin. It has been a pleasure my friends
Last edited by Miss Blue; 08-01-2007 at 11:38 PM..
Reason: content
Oh Blue we are going to miss you!!! Please stop over and check in from time to time!
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The non-Christian sources only mention the emperor in power at the time of Jesus???? and that is what.. evidence, am I missing something here 
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