Religious Societies Are More Violent, Dangerous, and Unstable than Irreligious Societies (church, prophecies)
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Please, tell my friend's parents who fled communism or the elderly Jewish women at my job who fled the Nazi's or my own grandmother who's brother and cousins were killed by the fascists that irreligious society is less violent. Why don't you tell the hundreds of millions killed in the past century. There were more martyrs in the 20th century than in all of the history of Christendom, and it was at the hands of irreligious societies. I think that people will list religion as being more important in a violent area, because they will be praying more often for their own safety and for the soles of their loved ones. As someone who pays attention to the world around him, I've noticed that those who use religion as a means of violence, only do so after distorting the teachings of their faith.
One last thing. I respect atheists, but cannot stand those people who want to use religion as the worlds scapegoat. To me it takes a lot of guts to say that there is nothing, I find it absurd, but I think it is a hard pill to swallow. If you cannot find reason to believe in a god, then so be it. Do not pretend to believe, because you are only fooling yourself.
Scapegoat?!?! The Abrahamic doctrines are evil, and a direct threat to civilization.
Don't try to link me to mutated strands of dogma. My atheism is nothing. It is not what I believe. If you wish to link me to something I don't believe, then I will link you to Hitler, because both of you don't believe in the flying spaghetti monster (assumption). You only concentrate on my nonbelief because you don't want to be seen, as you rightly should be, as a person who hates humanity, civilization, freedom of expression and secular governments.
Again with BS statistics. It's estimated that almost 6 million people die a year from tobacco related illnesses. Why is there a holocaust every year? You might want to look at the ever increasing population.
81% of the prison population believes in god... it didn't help them much did it?
81% of eminent scholars, Ph.D. scientists are atheist. I wonder why the smarter you are the more likely you are to ditch religion?
Yes, and 100% of doorknobs don't believe in a god either. Does that make them a model for the rest of us?
Here's a breakdown of "religious societies" and "irreligious societies":
Religious societies: Human society
Irreligious societies: Baboons, wolves, prairie dogs, ants, etc.... and, oh yes, the small minority of human atheists.
If you desire the same spiritual life as a baboon that's your choice (and I'll let atheists argue amongst themselves about whether they have a "spiritual life" or not). I prefer to exercise my human right to believe in the supernatural.
And AshevilleNative: I think you misspoke when you asked one of your opponents to "open your mind". You really meant "close your mind" to the idea of the supernatural. Belief in the supernatural requires an open mind; atheism does not. In fact, not believing in a god requires no mind at all (cf. doorknob example).
Sure. Deism is not an religion and it far more logical and rational than Christianity ever will be.
Because quite a few Christians want to impose their beliefs into our courtrooms, schools and laws in their quest to turn the country into a Bible-based theocracy.
And I care about that quite a bit. Enough to take up arms.
As any patriot should.
Pardon me, but the VAST majority of Christians do NO wish to impose our beliefs into our courtrooms, schools, and laws nor do we want this to be a Bible-based theocracy. The vocal minority who get media attention might (remember folks, extremism of any kind is almost always a bad thing, ESPECIALLY on matters of religion), but the vast majority of us, prefer to just keep our religion to ourselves and live the best lives we can. If there was a group trying to take over the U.S. and turn it into a theocracy, honestly, I would take up arms with you (scroll down as to why), but other than the Islamic extremists, not the majority of Muslims, I don't see this as something currently going on.
P.S. The book series that the word, "Hobbits," comes from, is a Catholic allegory, written by a devout Roman Catholic, J.R.R. Tolkien. Just thought you should know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex
Scapegoat?!?! The Abrahamic doctrines are evil, and a direct threat to civilization.
Don't try to link me to mutated strands of dogma. My atheism is nothing. It is not what I believe. If you wish to link me to something I don't believe, then I will link you to Hitler, because both of you don't believe in the flying spaghetti monster (assumption). You only concentrate on my nonbelief because you don't want to be seen, as you rightly should be, as a person who hates humanity, civilization, freedom of expression and secular governments.
Again with BS statistics. It's estimated that almost 6 million people die a year from tobacco related illnesses. Why is there a holocaust every year? You might want to look at the ever increasing population.
<insert exclamation of choice!!!!>
How on EARTH am I am person who hates humanity, civilization, freedom of expression, and secular governments solely because I follow an Abrahamic religion!?!?!
The humanity comment is baffling beyond belief. If you truly knew anything about Catholic Social Teaching (I'm going to use R.C. since I shouldn't speak for other religions I am not a part of) you would see how baffling this is. Are you trying to make a reference to the Churches stance on Condoms, Gay marriage, and abortion? All of which, if you take the time to read the C.C.C. the church has a very consistent view on, with respect for human life and dignity. Or are you trying to reference clerical abuse? An issue blown out of proportion, because lets be honest it makes a great fodder for our 24 hour ratings driven news channels (FOX, CNN, MSNBC are all don't care about the news, just ratings). Also, tell me where does the Catholic Church teach me to hate? I know that they teach me to love my neighbor, to help others, to act out and live my faith, and to "walk the walk".
Being the Christianity and Islam have more to due with the spread of civilization than any other not nature related factors, I don't think I even need to start on this one. I will ask though, do you think that we all want to return to the middle ages? If so, again, you are wrong.
Why would I hate freedom of expression? It allows me to practice my faith. It allows me to talk to people of other faiths and find out fascinating new incites on life, death, and what is reality.
I am VERY thankful for our secular government here in the U.S. Because it is secular, all religions have the right to practice their beliefs (or if one has none, then the right to not do anything) Before the constitution was signed, it was illegal to openly practice my faith in 12 of the 13 original states (the only state is was allowed in was due to a loop hole that also allowed other Abrahamic religions.) Since our government is secular, it means that one day, my gay friends can get married. While I may not agree with the morality of such a decision, it is not my job to stop them and I see no constitutional basis for doing so. They were granted free will and they are making their choice. The only time I come close to allowing my faith to play a role in politics is abortion. I deplore the idea of abortion. That is a life that is being taken away, not some shapeless parasitic blob. Scientifically speaking, life begins at conception, therefore, we do not have the right to kill that child while it is still in the womb. I do not like the whole "culture of death". Death is irreversible, life should always be given a chance. (sorry about the tangent, also I consider it a different issue to be left to doctors when the mother's life is endangered)
The statistics are not bs. They are the result of the conscious intent to kill, unlike smoking where that is a side effect. The increase in population is a moot point when you include the fact that most Jews were killed during the Holocaust, and in all of the many genocides of the century, entire towns and families have been wiped off the map.
I used the examples I did, because I wanted to show you that secular societies can be just as cruel as religions ones. Religion in not the root of all the worlds evil. Has much wrong been done in its name? Absolutely! But has even more wrong been done in the name of jealousy, greed, sloth, lust, gluttony, revenge, and ignorance? Absolutely. The problem is not that religion is flawed, but that man is flawed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex
The supreme confidence of the ignorant cause such behavior. Why would you question your actions when you KNOW you are doing the right thing? God commanded it, it must be true.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can convince you to commit atrocities"
Well, since the concept of a godless world to me is absurd, I suppose you could commit atrocities in the name of there being no god. I believe they did this in Stalinist Russia. I know they had an excellent point about this in the episode of South Park where they showed a future where everyone was atheist. The point of the episode was, no matter what, Man will find a reason for war.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
Russia would seem to contradict that.
It's the people and their mindset that make a society unstable or violent. Religion or the lack thereof is just another thing to hide it behind.
110% agree
Quote:
Originally Posted by aries63
Yes, and 100% of doorknobs don't believe in a god either. Does that make them a model for the rest of us?
Here's a breakdown of "religious societies" and "irreligious societies":
Religious societies: Human society
Irreligious societies: Baboons, wolves, prairie dogs, ants, etc.... and, oh yes, the small minority of human atheists.
If you desire the same spiritual life as a baboon that's your choice (and I'll let atheists argue amongst themselves about whether they have a "spiritual life" or not). I prefer to exercise my human right to believe in the supernatural.
And AshevilleNative: I think you misspoke when you asked one of your opponents to "open your mind". You really meant "close your mind" to the idea of the supernatural. Belief in the supernatural requires an open mind; atheism does not. In fact, not believing in a god requires no mind at all (cf. doorknob example).
Great post. Personally, I find that people who tell other to "open their mind" are usually even more close minded in the first place.
It's confusing, but from what I gather "Christianity" for many atheists here means "The belief in the the most literalistic reading of the Christian Bible possible." That few Christians do that only means that few Christians are "True Christians" from their perspective.
Many of the more hardcore atheists, in my experience, are people who have extreme difficulty with allegory and paradox. To put it crudely they want things that are relatively straightforward and simple. So for them Fundamentalism is quite possibly saner and easier to deal with than most of Christianity. The Christianity of say G. K. Chesterton, which was all about allegory and paradox and poetry, would be confusing bordering on madness from such a mindset. Even someone like C. S. Lewis or J. R. R. Tolkien might be difficult to comprehend.
Granted there's part of me that thinks that's unfair, but I've asked some if they've ever enjoyed novels or poetry and I don't think I've received a clear "yes" very often. Most of them, IMO, have really mediocre understandings of the humanities in general. Sure they'll lecture me that they know history better than I and on certain things involving the Biblical-era Near East they might, but in general I've never seen any evidence of it. And it's not because I'm so prideful I think no one knows history better than I. On Science Fiction forums I go to there are many atheists who know history way better than I do. However they know it because they are interested in it, they're not just selectively reading history as a tool with which to argue against Christianity.
So anyway the literal understanding of the Bible, and the negatives of Christian history, are apparently important to many atheists in a way the literal understanding of the Qur'an and the negatives of Islamic history are not to me. Even though I took a year or so of classes on Islam, and wrote a paper I nearly had published on the topic.
In their defense it is different as I do not live in an Islamic society. They are often living in a world where they are a distrusted minority. Distrusted minorities have different ways of dealing with that. Some try to focus on being productive and tolerant members of society. If that root fails or appears to have failed they might go more the "Power" root. (Black Power, Red Power, etc) Emphasizing the majority as a corrupt force of exploitation and domination that one needs to struggle against. Granted I really don't see how the situation of atheists today is like that of Gays in the 1970s or Blacks in the 1960s, but I guess some of them do see commonalities. Still they are less sympathetic because the Black Power movement of the 1960s or the Qu**r Nation movements of later eras did not envision everyone becoming Black or Gay. Atheist actually do seem intent in converting and in being declared superior judging by threads with titles like these. That understandably makes that kind of atheist more threatening and engenders greater resentment. (Not all or even most atheists are like this mind you. Most atheists I think would be fine with being accepted and legally protected in the way we would/should accept and protect Baha'is or Sikhs or Jews. In my experience though most atheists here would find mere acceptance, rather than emulation or celebration, profoundly disappointing)
That few Christians do that only means that few Christians are "True Christians" from their perspective.
I guess it depends on what you mean by "few Christians", but I'm not sure that's true.
According to Gallup, about 1/3 of the population of the U.S. believes the Bible is the actual word of God and is to be taken literally word for word. Not just the Christians, but 1/3 of the entire population.
That figure is about twice as high for protestants as it is for Catholics. In the South, 41% of the population believes in a literal word-for-word interpretation of the bible. Since not all people are Christian, it's likely that in many places the majority of the Christians that Atheist grow up around are literalistic. In fact many atheist, like me, used to BE a literalist.
So one could see why many Atheist view Christianity the way we do.
But it is curious to me how many atheists here are in the South. In much of the Midwest or Pacific Coast, and in most other developed nations (including more religious ones like Cyprus or Singapore), Christians are clearly less like that. It's also less like that for people under 50 and college educated people.
It perplexes me that so many atheists here seem to come from parts of the country where atheism is quite rare. In most forums I've went to before CD the atheists were mostly from New England, New York, Pennsylvania, the West Coast, and Europe. The only thing I can think of is that atheists in more Biblical literalists areas feel more reason to come here than they would have reason to come to a place discussing literature or news.
I'm not sure how many are from the South. But I think most of the"militant" atheist that post here are former fundamentalist protestants.
Our mental image of the average Christian is the Christians we used to know and be. Since we've personally spent thousands of hours in church growing up as a fundamentalist, that's the type of Christians we are familiar with. The idea that non-literalist aren't "real" Christians was likely borne from our days in our fundamentalist churches, where that is what is taught. I know I was quite surprised to find out at a rather late age that so many Christians didn't believe that what was in the bible was literally true.
I'm not sure how many are from the South. But I think most of the"militant" atheist that post here are former fundamentalist protestants.
Our mental image of the average Christian is the Christians we used to know and be. Since we've personally spent thousands of hours in church growing up as a fundamentalist, that's the type of Christians we are familiar with. The idea that non-literalist aren't "real" Christians was likely borne from our days in our fundamentalist churches, where that is what is taught. I know I was quite surprised to find out at a rather late age that so many Christians didn't believe that what was in the bible was literally true.
That's interesting. Growing up in a predominantly Italian and Hispanic community in NJ, most people I know are Catholic. I had the opposite experience, I never realized that people took the Bible literally, and in turn admittedly have a relatively poor understanding of Protestantism.
Not all Protestantism even takes everything in the Bible literally. The whole idea of "Fundamentalism", from what I recall, was a reaction against "Modernist" Protestantism which taught more that the Bible is largely a work of people that reflected their own culture. That what we learn through objective study of archaeology, study that does not assume the Bible is true, should change or "deepen" how we view the Bible. Things like "Higher Criticism" and the like. So some "Modernist Protestantism" even took the position the Resurrection never happened and that a theistic God does not necessarily exist. Although I don't think most of them went quite that far.
Still I think all Protestantism, almost by definition, is centered on the believers relationship to the Bible. (Or more accurately Jesus through the Bible) The practical upshot of that being that Protestant cultures at times developed high literacy rates at a somewhat earlier point than Catholic or Orthodox ones. Pre-Reformation Christianity had more concern on Tradition and a recognition that the canon of the Bible was formed by the Church and I am babbling on smugly so I better stop
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