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People once said the same thing about the Big Bang theory.
Which has nothing to do with Halloween. A scarecrow is still a straw man.
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This is why when things like this, it's always important to check lots of sources from varying viewpoints, 'cause if all you're looking for is a viewpoint that supports your own, you aren't really searching for the truth. You're just trying to win. (And by "you" I mean not "you" personally but everyone, myself included.)
Was Samhain an ancient druidic festival? You bet. Have modern neo-pagans revived the festival? You bet. Is the modern holiday of Halloween a direct descendant of Samhain? No way. There is absolutely no historic evidence to support that claim. Up until the neo-pagan revival, druidism had been extinct in Ireland for a good thousand years or more.
That last point, as you've likely read, is not the case. Not everything pagan has passed away in Ireland, or the rest of Europe, no matter how much the Catholic church would like it. What I experienced wasn't connected to neo-paganism in any way, shape, or form. There are other observances that still remain. We see them most commonly in traditions surrounding Christmas: Yule logs, mistletoe, Christmas trees, and decorating the house in evergreens.
I can tell though, you're going to make me work for this. I'll start on it tomorrow. It's too late in my day to go any further.
That last point, as you've likely read, is not the case. Not everything pagan has passed away in Ireland, or the rest of Europe, no matter how much the Catholic church would like it. What I experienced wasn't connected to neo-paganism in any way, shape, or form. There are other observances that still remain. We see them most commonly in traditions surrounding Christmas: Yule logs, mistletoe, Christmas trees, and decorating the house in evergreens.
I can tell though, you're going to make me work for this. I'll start on it tomorrow. It's too late in my day to go any further.
Oh, don't work too hard, 'cause I mostly agree. Except the part about "Celtic church." What do you mean by that? There really hasn't been a "Celtic Church" per se in several hundred years. Unless you mean the Church in countries of Celtic origin. Then okay.
Sure there are lots and lots of holiday traditions with roots in paganism. Absolutely agreed! The ones you named concerning Christmas are prime examples.
But Halloween being the modern descendant of the druids' Samhain? No. 'Tain't so.
Then the Satanists have won. They've forced you out of your holiday. What happens if they co-opt Christmas or Easter? Will you cease to observe those because the Satanists are celebrating as well? For all I know they already do.
What Satanists do on their time is their business. I refuse to let them take a cultural festival and ruin it for me. It's even ridiculous that they've adopted Halloween because Halloween has nothing to do with Satan unless Satanists have made it so. When the Druids were running around Europe there wasn't a Satan. Satan is a Judeo-Christian being, not a Druidic one.
My faith is not so weak that it can't sustain a few little kids dressed as monsters, some scary movies, paper decorations, a carved pumpkin, and if I'm lucky, a thumping good costume party. I don't fear any of those things and I don't fear Satanists either. I know what side will triumph in the end no matter what they say or do.
If someone wants to be a Satanist and they're not hurting anyone, great. Knock yourself out. But I am not going to let their misguidance drive me away from enjoying my life and engaging in Halloween fun. The only power a Satanist has over you is the power you let them have.
Don't give it to them.
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Originally Posted by Blueberry
The thing is, Halloween isn't just what we personally think about it. It also entails what others think about it, and practices performed by others.
I love the fun side of Halloween: dressing up, mild haunted houses, parties, candy, parades, pumpkin carving, trick-or-treat, soaping windows (does anyone remember that?). When I lived in Indiana as a child, trick-or-treating lasted a week!
The holiday is much darker today. I wish I could think of it as only the fun stuff. However, I used to be on a prayer chain for a Christian lady whose husband was raised by parents who were Satanists. Because of her husband, she had a wide circle of friends/acquaintances who had also been exposed to this influence; they were all survivors of horrible, ritualistic abuse. There are ritualistic dates throughout the year for Satanists; Halloween is their highest celebration. This lady would plead for prayers for her husband and others she knew because they would always have flashbacks and feel a deep sense of evil descend upon them during these high holidays. Most of these people feared for their lives; many had been threatened for leaving the "family."
Every year, I read various accounts of Halloween activities from varied sources, mostly secular. I have seen numerous articles that included a snippet about how the Satanists are celebrating because the Christians are celebrating "their" day. At one point, I did lots of research because of a conflict that had come up within the church regarding Halloween. While most sources downplay the evils of the holiday, I also found what I considered credible sources that were talking from personal experience about what the holiday means to Satanists.
Because of mixed emotions regarding Halloween, I've chosen to take Romans 14:23 as my guide. Since I doubt whether or not I should celebrate the holiday, I consider joining in certain activities a sin (for me, not for others) because I am not participating from a position of faith. However, I've always tried to provide an alternative activity which includes dressing up, playing lots of games, getting candy, etc; there's just no hint of the evil associated with the holiday at this activity.
Wow. I hadn't even seen that. That's just an article full of bunk. You want to dissect the silliness with me?
Then why on Earth did you post it?
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Originally Posted by Jason_Els
That last point, as you've likely read, is not the case. Not everything pagan has passed away in Ireland, or the rest of Europe, no matter how much the Catholic church would like it. What I experienced wasn't connected to neo-paganism in any way, shape, or form. There are other observances that still remain. We see them most commonly in traditions surrounding Christmas: Yule logs, mistletoe, Christmas trees, and decorating the house in evergreens.
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Originally Posted by Mark S.
Oh, don't work too hard, 'cause I mostly agree. Except the part about "Celtic church." What do you mean by that? There really hasn't been a "Celtic Church" per se in several hundred years. Unless you mean the Church in countries of Celtic origin. Then okay.
Sure there are lots and lots of holiday traditions with roots in paganism. Absolutely agreed! The ones you named concerning Christmas are prime examples.
But Halloween being the modern descendant of the druids' Samhain? No. 'Tain't so.
Where did I say, "Celtic church?" I said, "Catholic church." Maybe it's late there too?
Thank you for the dispensation, but Halloween is my favorite holiday and I feel the need to defend it with more than usual vigor. It bothers me no end when people find evil just because they suspect it; which is one of the reasons one of my favorite mottos is, Honi soit qui mal y pense. Halloween is too frequently a nail for all those people running around with hammers.
Location: land of quail, bunnies, and red tail hawks
1,513 posts, read 3,387,565 times
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Originally Posted by Jason_Els
Then the Satanists have won.
You're right; they have! It's pretty obvious just casually glancing around the country during the month of October that they have won. What's glorified during this month? It's certainly not jack-o-lanterns and trick-or-treaters. Evil, blood, guts, and gore and glorified. Real people suffer because of this. I refuse to put on blinders and see only the side that makes me comfortable.
Halloween isn't the same holiday I had as a child. One can't take back the holiday by engaging in the very activities and themes that co-opted it. My holiday activities don't reflect the least little bit what the rest of the world is doing during this time. That does not mean I don't have fun or don't allow my child to have fun during this time. We just refuse the evil themes associated with Halloween. For most people, Halloween wouldn't be Halloween with the blood, guts, gore, occult overtones, etc.
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My faith is not so weak that it can't sustain a few little kids dressed as monsters, some scary movies, paper decorations, a carved pumpkin, and if I'm lucky, a thumping good costume party. I don't fear any of those things and I don't fear Satanists either. I know what side will triumph in the end no matter what they say or do.
My faith is not weak, and I don't live in fear. I also don't judge others who don't see this the same way I do.
Oo, Mr. Snarky. I posted the good article. I didn't even see the link to the silly one until you pointed it out.
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Originally Posted by Jason_Els
Where did I say, "Celtic church?" I said, "Catholic church." Maybe it's late there too?
You edited it afterward you sneaky boy, you. I know you wrote "Celtic church" first time round.
But seriously, if you think the Catholic Church has some big agenda to stomp out all vestiges of paganism, then you haven't read many Catholics. Read some Chesterton and Tolkien.
The Catholic Church has written lots about the truths found in other religions, even the so-called "pagan" ones. The Church doesn't reject truth from any source. Truth is truth, no matter who it comes from.
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Originally Posted by Jason_Els
Thank you for the dispensation, but Halloween is my favorite holiday and I feel the need to defend it with more than usual vigor. It bothers me no end when people find evil just because they suspect it; which is one of the reasons one of my favorite mottos is, Honi soit qui mal y pense. Halloween is too frequently a nail for all those people running around with hammers.
Don't get me wrong. I love Halloween, too. Great, great fun. I celebrate it with vigor. I just take issue with people who want to claim its a direct descendant of Samhain, 'cause it just isn't no matter how it is spun or retconned.
You're right; they have! It's pretty obvious just casually glancing around the country during the month of October that they have won. What's glorified during this month? It's certainly not jack-o-lanterns and trick-or-treaters. Evil, blood, guts, and gore and glorified. Real people suffer because of this.
Wow. That's really sad. I see the blood, guts, and gore, how could I not? Eli Roth has been a friend of mine since childhood so I'm pretty much obliged to watch his movies. If it's any explanation, both of his parents are Freudian analysts. We used to joke that he and his brothers were the most well-adjusted kids we knew. They still are and don't take any of this stuff remotely seriously.
I don't see evil being glorified in Halloween. I see people enjoying a good scare or teens going out and doing pranks like TPing and throwing eggs or pumpkins. I see mischief, not evil. It takes a lot to be really, truly, evil. I don't know anyone who actually suffers for it; inconvenienced maybe, but not suffering.
Oo, Mr. Snarky. I posted the good article. I didn't even see the link to the silly one until you pointed it out.
How could you not see a link you yourself originally posted in its own separate post? Not trying to be snarky, just trying to figure out how that happened. Yes, even *I* screw-up posts now and then. I admit that with open arms.
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Originally Posted by Mark S.
You edited it afterward you sneaky boy, you. I know you wrote "Celtic church" first time round.
I swear I didn't edit it because I think, "Celtic Church," is still a valid description of the Catholic Church in Ireland. I can't speak for it in other Celtic nations. Irish Catholicism is a lot more relaxed than it is here.
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Originally Posted by Mark S.
But seriously, if you think the Catholic Church has some big agenda to stomp out all vestiges of paganism, then you haven't read many Catholics. Read some Chesterton and Tolkien.
The Catholic Church has written lots about the truths found in other religions, even the so-called "pagan" ones. The Church doesn't reject truth from any source. Truth is truth, no matter who it comes from.
As in G.K. and J.R.R.? Would Augustine, John of the Cross, and Teresa of Avila count too? Howabout going to Catholic school for six years? Been there, done that, bought the DVDs. The Church does not recognize that the dead may come back to the living. It's their policy that you end-up in Purgatory, Hell, or Heaven and that is where you stay. There may be demons, but there are no ghosts. That tenet of Celtic paganism cannot be accepted as a truth.
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Originally Posted by Mark S.
Don't get me wrong. I love Halloween, too. Great, great fun. I celebrate it with vigor. I just take issue with people who want to claim its a direct descendant of Samhain, 'cause it just isn't no matter how it is spun or retconned.
I'll save that for next time but glad to know you enjoy it.
Last edited by Jason_Els; 07-18-2007 at 01:31 AM..
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