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Regarding the #8 choice, I would suggest quotation marks around "God's Holy Word". I'm a mixture of #6 and #8. It can't be proven that there is no God, but it can't be proven that there isn't a planet made of solid beryllium inside the black hole at the center of the Milky Way Galaxy. Both propositions are extremely unlikely and unworthy of having belief in.
.............so sure that God dosent exist??,i mean apart from that you think its unlikely,or apart from having bad religious experiences,,, because if anyone says anything about the existence of God,you all seem so sure that its just fairytales or spaghetti monsters and stuff,loads of things may be unliklely but that dont mean that its immpossible???
Nothing's impossible but you don't read about virgin birth and resurrection every day. Well, some do...really good Christians who read the load of BS in the bible.
I'ver never met a Christian who didn't stretch every coincidence or unusual occurance about something they believed to try to subtely make it match some of the crap in the bible. I guess to try to make the other stuff seem mpre believable. Why does anyone want to believe in a 2000 year old collection of Jewish tales which condemn 90% of everyone who has ever lived on the planet?
John 14:6 'Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.'
The Jews wrote the bible and they don't even believe in Jesus.
Last edited by Melvin.George; 02-25-2011 at 01:34 AM..
Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
Faith, as it pertains to religion is used to fill a void. That void being the absence of logic, reason, evidence and common sense. Faith is what you use when the evidence tells you what you don't want to be true. In reality, faith is nothing more than refusing to recognize logic and evidence when it tells you something you'd rather not believe. Faith is the last refuge of those who have had their arguments defeated by logic and reason.
Logic and reason lead us to accept the extreme unlikelihood that Leprechauns exist.
Logic and reason lead us to accept the extreme unlikelihood that fairies exist.
Logic and reason lead us to accept the extreme unlikelihood that mermaids exist.
That same logic and reason lead us to accept the extreme unlikelihood that God exists, yet you discard logic and reason in favour of what you desire to believe.
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Many say that this can’t apply to God because with the brakes you have tested them before.
What you really need to do is learn the difference between 'faith' and 'trust'.
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I don’t know Hebrew but .....
The Hebrews had a word for 'round' or 'ball-like' and if they knew that the Earth was that shape they would have used that word. They didn't, which indicates that they didn't know the Earth was a sphere.
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It’s possible. I myself believe that there is one God. Whether if exactly what I believe is completely true or not or whether what someone else believes is true or not, I believe that in the end most of us are all thinking on the same entity. We just see that entity differently. When it finally comes down to it, yes there will be an ultimate truth. Is finding that truth before the end mandatory? I don’t think so, definitely not according to my Bible.
'Truth' is not among your criteria. Your criteria is to accept only what you have decided is true, despite having no support for those beliefs. Your agenda is to pursue anything which might offer some hope of support for beliefs you've already adopted in the absence of support. You are unwilling to accept anything which demonstrates to the contrary of what you believe. You have adopted your idea of truth first and are now seeking support for that choice. That's not a search for truth; it's a search for self-validation. The only "truth" you would be willing to accept is that which you already choose to believe. That which shows your beliefs to be wrong you refuse to accept, even when it is true.
Some people will only accept truth if it is the truth they have preconceived. Anything else they simply reject. As long as objective analysis continues to show a complete lack of evidence consistent with the existence of any god, some theists will reject the conclusion. They are only willing to accept what they have already decided to be true. The rest of us are doing just fine utilizing the same rational methods which have lead to truth in every other instance.
If you will only accept what you already believe to be truth, then you have closed the door to truth for yourself. Reality does not owe anyone anything. It will not change simply because you refuse to accept it. If you're really interested in truth, then you must accept it even if it is not what you wanted it to be. It won't change no matter how long or feverishly you refuse to accept it.
You can't accept truth only on your terms and expect to find truth. It just doesn't work that way.
Faith, as it pertains to religion is used to fill a void. That void being the absence of logic, reason, evidence and common sense. Faith is what you use when the evidence tells you what you don't want to be true. In reality, faith is nothing more than refusing to recognize logic and evidence when it tells you something you'd rather not believe. Faith is the last refuge of those who have had their arguments defeated by logic and reason.
Both this response and your last response say the same thing, that my faith can’t possibly be worth anything because it isn’t based on evidence but I’m telling you that it is based on evidence. It would be too difficult to believe if there was no affirmation. Affirmation keeps one interested. I don’t mean to make it sound like “I can go to this secret place and you can’t nah nah nah” but sometimes it just is what it is. The affirmation that I’m talking about is rarely available to someone who does not believe.
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Originally Posted by Rafius
Logic and reason lead us to accept the extreme unlikelihood that Leprechauns exist.
Logic and reason lead us to accept the extreme unlikelihood that fairies exist.
Logic and reason lead us to accept the extreme unlikelihood that mermaids exist.
That same logic and reason lead us to accept the extreme unlikelihood that God exists, yet you discard logic and reason in favour of what you desire to believe.
Leprechauns, fairies, and mermaids have been unable to impact my life in a meaningful way. I’d be careful in having logic and reason as my God in a world as strange as this.
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Originally Posted by Rafius
What you really need to do is learn the difference between 'faith' and 'trust'.
Trust: Having confidence in something because you have seen it work
Faith: Having confidence in something because you have seen it work
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Originally Posted by Rafius
The Hebrews had a word for 'round' or 'ball-like' and if they knew that the Earth was that shape they would have used that word. They didn't, which indicates that they didn't know the Earth was a sphere.
Whether it’s true or not, gaining this point adds very little to your argument that you borrowed from another poster. I would hope that if something more serious hinged on the outcome of this determination that there would be something stronger in support. There is not enough evidence from “circle” to tell what they thought about the world. Furthermore if today I called a sphere a circle and you tried to pin me on it the best you would get out of me is an “are you serious? come on man.”
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Originally Posted by Rafius
'Truth' is not among your criteria. Your criteria is to accept only what you have decided is true, despite having no support for those beliefs. Your agenda is to pursue anything which might offer some hope of support for beliefs you've already adopted in the absence of support. You are unwilling to accept anything which demonstrates to the contrary of what you believe. You have adopted your idea of truth first and are now seeking support for that choice. That's not a search for truth; it's a search for self-validation. The only "truth" you would be willing to accept is that which you already choose to believe. That which shows your beliefs to be wrong you refuse to accept, even when it is true.
Some people will only accept truth if it is the truth they have preconceived. Anything else they simply reject. As long as objective analysis continues to show a complete lack of evidence consistent with the existence of any god, some theists will reject the conclusion. They are only willing to accept what they have already decided to be true. The rest of us are doing just fine utilizing the same rational methods which have lead to truth in every other instance.
If you will only accept what you already believe to be truth, then you have closed the door to truth for yourself. Reality does not owe anyone anything. It will not change simply because you refuse to accept it. If you're really interested in truth, then you must accept it even if it is not what you wanted it to be. It won't change no matter how long or feverishly you refuse to accept it.
You can't accept truth only on your terms and expect to find truth. It just doesn't work that way.
Looks like three paragraphs to tell me that I have ultimately decided that God exists so anything that happens I will attribute to God. This could be true if I had no evidence.
Suppose you have a huge box with a display that possibly has a man inside or maybe it has just been programed to spit out messages on the display screen. Also there's a keyboard which can be used to try and ask questions to whatever is in there. How can I tell if it's a man (representing God in this example) or a computer (representing events turning out just however they turn out as a result of no one influencing events)? They both give answers (representing the stuff happens in this world) but whether there's a man or a machine in the computer would be given away by the answers that it gives.
Sorry if I couldn't properly illustrate my thought. I was making it up as I went along.
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Originally Posted by Rafius
No....you wouldn't!
Actually I’m wrong. Going back to the original statement I can see the parallel between a trip to Heaven and a trip around the universe. I don’t adamantly claim that my God is the only God even if I do feel that we are all thinking on the same entity and maybe don’t quite realize it. I was going to say that it seems to me that atheists are more sure that God doesn’t exist than believers are that their God is the only God. However my path probably has more atheists claiming God doesn’t exist and your path probably has more believers claiming that their God is the only God.
Summary of our conversation
Me: I have evidence
You: No, you don’t have evidence
Me: I have evidence
You: No, you don’t have evidence
Sure you can. Hinduism predates Christianity. Both religions can't be right. Someone is getting the wool pulled over their collective eyes.
not nescessarily!!!!acording to the Vaishnava tradition God has unlimited amounts of Forms and Names,so its quite possible that Yes the Abrahamic God does exist,but maybe has been mis-represented over time as Hueff' pointed out.usually the Avatars of the Supreme are personifications of certain quality's of God,like power,majesty,nobility,Love etc.
so to me that throws out that idea,of ''which God'',to me its quite possible that ALL of them exist eternally as one and the same God.
i can also understand the atheist's point of view too,its hard to grasp something that is so sub-lime and cant be seen with material senses,but as Dredre said spiritual practices bring experience's,ive experienced this first hand but its not evidence that can be shown on the outside but happens internally,physical evidence???,,,well some people might just say''take a look at the universe and its great vastness'',ive always thought that it must take something even greater to have ceated it,especially from something so small,others would just say God had nothing to do with it,and thats fine IMO.
i think bottom line is this,IMO anyway,an Atheist who dosent beleive in god yet lives a descent honest life,looks after his kids well,or just fullfills his/her desires and is underneath it all a good person,is better than a person who beleives in god but are ignorant towards people,judge people,condemn people and basically are hard hearted individuals who just dont care about anything but there own self-rightousness,to me it boils down to the individual.
ive posted this before--the word religion has the same end and meaning as the word Yoga-(to combine/link up with)or to (merge)with the supreme,if what a religious person is doing as spiritual practice's and its not doing this,then it is not religion.its somerthing that the individual experiences,ask any practitioner about Sankya-Yoga,Hatha-Yoga,Bhakti-Yoga etc,and try tell them that what they are experiencing is not real?
When you understand why you don't accept the claims of Zeus as true; you will understand why I don't accept the claims about your god.
who said zues isnt real,zues could very well be an alter ego of Indra,the king of the heavens,the heavenly planets are not situated in the spiritual sky but rather the material sky(universe's),they are temporary,but a day on one of these planets could be millions of years on earth.The demigods are considered to be the limbs of the Supreme personality of Godhead,they guide material nature in its course.
Both this response and your last response say the same thing, that my faith can’t possibly be worth anything because it isn’t based on evidence but I’m telling you that it is based on evidence.
No, your faith obviously has worth to you. It just doesn't have any worth to anyone else - we can't share your subjective experiences. If you had evidence you could share it with others, but you don't. Instead, you have faith.
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Leprechauns, fairies, and mermaids have been unable to impact my life in a meaningful way.
Stop mocking them and open your heart to them. As you said : The affirmation that I’m talking about is rarely available to someone who does not believe.
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Looks like three paragraphs to tell me that I have ultimately decided that God exists so anything that happens I will attribute to God. This could be true if I had no evidence.
If you had evidence, you could share it and we could test it. That's what evidence is. You have subjective experience.
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Suppose you have a huge box with a display that possibly has a man inside or maybe it has just been programed to spit out messages on the display screen. Also there's a keyboard which can be used to try and ask questions to whatever is in there. How can I tell if it's a man (representing God in this example) or a computer (representing events turning out just however they turn out as a result of no one influencing events)?
Sounds like a Turing Test would be in order here.
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However my path probably has more atheists claiming God doesn’t exist and your path probably has more believers claiming that their God is the only God.
Are you really trying to claim that that the billions of Christians, Muslims and Jews in the world are closet polytheists? Again, this is a situation where the evidence quite clearly shows something that your subjective impressions disagree with, with predicable results.
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Summary of our conversation
Me: I have evidence
You: No, you don’t have evidence
Me: I have evidence
You: No, you don’t have evidence
I don’t think we’ll be able to move beyond this.
Unless you can share it, you may have faith but you don't have evidence. The easy way to move past it is to demonstrate what that evidence is.
who said zues isnt real,zues could very well be an alter ego of Indra,the king of the heavens,the heavenly planets are not situated in the spiritual sky but rather the material sky(universe's),they are temporary,but a day on one of these planets could be millions of years on earth.The demigods are considered to be the limbs of the Supreme personality of Godhead,they guide material nature in its course.
Lots of "could be"s and passive voice here. Seems like we're not missing out on much truth by skipping over this religion stuff.
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