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Or perhaps they do? Heresy still has quite a sting to it...
And it's not well hidden...it's quite plain, actually. I still don't get how you guys do that crazy back-flip over 1 Timothy 4:10, amongst hundreds of others. Guess I need to take some yoga classes...
I think you just need to call it a day and go home, Jeff!
Possibly because in creating us He knows we are not perfect and will fail.
Thank you, Irishmom!
I can't believe that God would put something as serious as our eternal destinies in our hands, especially considering the circumstances we are all given to make this decision in, without something of a "backup plan" of His own. God knows how imperfect we are. Why would He damn most of us to an eternal seperation from Him (which goes against His will) for lack of understanding?
I'm not saying there are not punishments and rewards with God. But eternally? We are all His.
Possibly because in creating us He knows we are not perfect and will fail.
YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD! Sorry for the caps! That is EXACTLY why we need a Savior! We all fall short. It's not that complicated. And as stated in previous verses...we are without excuse no matter where we live...according to the bible.
First of all, properly interpreting the meaning of the original Greek and Hebrew is not twisting anything.
Ok, let's do a quick study on the words. This will address your question about a verse on eternal punishment plus a bonus on the eternal sin. IMO this is pretty much all there is left to say.
Mark 3:28-29 (New International Version)
I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
Translation:
“Never be forgiven”
αιωνα noun - accusative singular masculine
aion ahee-ohn': an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future)
Translation:
“Eternal”
αιωνιου adjective - genitive singular feminine
aionios ahee-o'-nee-os: perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well) -- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
Daniel 12:1-2 (New International Version)
"At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
The word used here for both "everlasting" is:
`owlam (o-lawm')
concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always
Matthew 25:41-46
Then He will also say to those on His left, "Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.” Then they themselves also will answer, “Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?” Then He will answer them, “Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.''
The word used here for eternal is:
αιωνιον adjective - accusative singular feminine
aionios ahee-o'-nee-os: perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well) -- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
2 Peter 2:4-9 (New International Version)
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them into gloomy dungeons[b] to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 (New International Version)
6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
Everlasting here translated:
αιωνιον adjective - accusative singular masculine
aionios ahee-o'-nee-os: perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well) -- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
Additional discussion over “aionios”The word for eternal is aionios. It means more than everlasting, for Plato - who may have invented the word - plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be aionios. The simplest way to out it is that aionios cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God. Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give.”
Ok, let's do a quick study on the words. This will address your question about a verse on eternal punishment plus a bonus on the eternal sin. IMO this is pretty much all there is left to say.
Mark 3:28-29 (New International Version)
I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
Translation:
“Never be forgiven”
αιωνα noun - accusative singular masculine
aion ahee-ohn': an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future)
Translation:
“Eternal”
αιωνιου adjective - genitive singular feminine
aionios ahee-o'-nee-os: perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well) -- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
So all of this is to prove...that God does not do what He tells us to do? Forgive 70 x's 7? This verse is one of the most misunderstood verses in history. As it is written in this translation, it is not exactly correct. And I personally believe that the original meaning of the verse is that the guilty party here will not be forgiven in this age, or the next...but will be in the one following that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim
Daniel 12:1-2 (New International Version)
"At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
The word used here for both "everlasting" is:
`owlam (o-lawm')
concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always
Matthew 25:41-46
Then He will also say to those on His left, "Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.” Then they themselves also will answer, “Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?” Then He will answer them, “Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.''
The word used here for eternal is:
αιωνιον adjective - accusative singular feminine
aionios ahee-o'-nee-os: perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well) -- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
2 Peter 2:4-9 (New International Version)
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them into gloomy dungeons[b] to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 (New International Version)
6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
Everlasting here translated:
αιωνιον adjective - accusative singular masculine
aionios ahee-o'-nee-os: perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well) -- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
Additional discussion over “aionios”The word for eternal is aionios. It means more than everlasting, for Plato - who may have invented the word - plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be aionios. The simplest way to out it is that aionios cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God. Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give.”
So all of this is to say that God's punishments are everlasting--and that is correct, becuase GOD is everlasting. It does not mean that the punishment goes on forever, but that the judgement given by God in this case IS GOOD FOREVER--there is no expiration date on it.
By the way, per your own "additional discussion" above, aion indicates the following...
"Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give.”
Remedial: tending or intended to rectify or improve; curative: tending to cure or restore to health
But I thought His punishments were purely to punish forever, with no hope of restoring the sinner?
Y'all be sure and send back a note telling those that are still here how it REALLY is up there.
One of the things that I will always wonder about heaven is that did they manage to finally get my mother to shut up and listen. It would be a first.
We always said that when she died, no one would recognize her laying there in her casket because her mouth would be shut. When we went to see her to OK everything before she was put out for display, the first thing I thought of was she just didn't look right. Yep, her mouth was shut. Unfortunately, when I realized why, I upset the nice man at the funeral home by saying it out loud.
Y'all be sure and send back a note telling those that are still here how it REALLY is up there.
One of the things that I will always wonder about heaven is that did they manage to finally get my mother to shut up and listen. It would be a first.
We always said that when she died, no one would recognize her laying there in her casket because her mouth would be shut. When we went to see her to OK everything before she was put out for display, the first thing I thought of was she just didn't look right. Yep, her mouth was shut. Unfortunately, when I realized why, I upset the nice man at the funeral home by saying it out loud.
So all of this is to prove...that God does not do what He tells us to do? Forgive 70 x's 7? This verse is one of the most misunderstood verses in history. As it is written in this translation, it is not exactly correct. And I personally believe that the original meaning of the verse is that the guilty party here will not be forgiven in this age, or the next...but will be in the one following that.
Jeff, if you read the translation it says that the word eternal is:
Translation:
“Eternal”
αιωνιου adjective - genitive singular feminine
aionios ahee-o'-nee-os: perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well) -- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
First off 70x7 is a finate number not eternal.
Here's the verse again. Mark 3:28-29 (New International Version)
I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
This verse is clear...it could not be any clearer that there is one sin that causes the sinner to be guilty of an eternal sin. Eternal in this context as in the greek word aionios. Not the Greek word aion.
You said:And I personally believe that the original meaning of the verse is that the guilty party here will not be forgiven in this age, or the next...but will be in the one following that.
You can believe that but there is no biblical backing for it considering the verses and their greek meaning that is presented here.
In addition you said: So all of this is to say that God's punishments are everlasting--and that is correct, becuase GOD is everlasting. It does not mean that the punishment goes on forever, but that the judgement given by God in this case IS GOOD FOREVER--there is no expiration date on it.
What part of this verse doesn't explain that punishment is forever and that it will be in hell?
Matthew 25:41-46
Then He will also say to those on His left, "Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.” Then they themselves also will answer, “Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?” Then He will answer them, “Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.''
The word used here for eternal is:
αιωνιον adjective - accusative singular feminine
aionios ahee-o'-nee-os: perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well) -- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
Jeff...and you know I am saying this in love...it seems you are determined to believe what you want to no matter what evidence is presented to you. You can look at it through rose colored glasses to make it what you want to but I think scripture is pretty clear. And...after having spent a bit of time on it at this point I think I am done. So...ya know I love ya...but please don't be offended if I just stay quiet on the dead horse issue in the future.
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Heresy still has quite a sting to it...
Guess I need to take some yoga classes...
