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Jeff, if you read the translation it says that the word eternal is:
Translation:
“Eternal”
αιωνιου adjective - genitive singular feminine
aionios ahee-o'-nee-os: perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well) -- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
This is hotly debated, and I don't agree that aionios has anything to do with eternity. The meanings of many concordances do not include this. I have studied this deeply and don't have the time to drag it all out now. But I am firmly convinced of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim
First off 70x7 is a finate number not eternal.
So once we've reached that number we are no longer required to forgive?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim
Here's the verse again. Mark 3:28-29 (New International Version)
I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
This verse is clear...it could not be any clearer that there is one sin that causes the sinner to be guilty of an eternal sin. Eternal in this context as in the greek word aionios. Not the Greek word aion.
Aionios is the adjective of the noun aion, and as such it must mean "that which pertains to ages." It could be one or many ages, just as the adjective "hourly" pertains to hours. It could be pertaining to only one, but it could also be pertaining to very many hours. But it must pertain to hours, and not weeks, months, or centuries!
NO ADJECTIVE can take on a greater or different means from the noun from which it is derived.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim
You said:And I personally believe that the original meaning of the verse is that the guilty party here will not be forgiven in this age, or the next...but will be in the one following that.
You can believe that but there is no biblical backing for it considering the verses and their greek meaning that is presented here.
But there are verses and "backing" not found here. So just because it is not represented here does not mean it does not exist...it does!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim
In addition you said: So all of this is to say that God's punishments are everlasting--and that is correct, becuase GOD is everlasting. It does not mean that the punishment goes on forever, but that the judgement given by God in this case IS GOOD FOREVER--there is no expiration date on it.
What part of this verse doesn't explain that punishment is forever and that it will be in hell?
Matthew 25:41-46
Then He will also say to those on His left, "Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.” Then they themselves also will answer, “Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?” Then He will answer them, “Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.''
Okay. Let's assume you are right regarding eternal. Why then is “Everlasting” applied to the priesthood of Aaron; to the statutes of Moses; to the mountains and hills; and to the doors of the Jewish temple, to the length of time that reproach and shame should be upon the Jews. The word “forever” is applied to the duration of man’s earthly existence; to the time a child was to abide in the temple; to the continuance of Gehazi’s leprosy; to the to the duration of a king’s life; to the time a servant was to abide with his master; to the duration of the Jewish temple; to the time David was to be king over Israel; to the throne of Solomon; to the stones that were set up at Jordan; and to the time Jonah was in the fish’s belly.
Same exact words, except in some cases the Hebrew equivallent, Olam. It should be obvious from the context (see above!) that olam and aion merely referred to an indefinite period of time–not forever!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim
The word used here for eternal is:
αιωνιον adjective - accusative singular feminine
aionios ahee-o'-nee-os: perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well) -- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
As you pointed out yourself yesterday, the common modern (mis)translation of aionios tries to claim that it is self-contradictory. With a beginning and an end, and without a beginning and an end are 2 entirely different things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim
Jeff...and you know I am saying this in love...it seems you are determined to believe what you want to no matter what evidence is presented to you. You can look at it through rose colored glasses to make it what you want to but I think scripture is pretty clear. And...after having spent a bit of time on it at this point I think I am done.
No, jazzed, and if you knew me in RL you wouldn't assume that. Believing what I do now, although it brings immeasurable peace and internal security, has made a heretic of me with my friends and family. The only person I know in RL who believes as I do is my wife (and some long-distance friends).
I am a seeker of the truth, and firmly believe that God rewards those who diligently seek Him. I spent my life with my inner spirit man at odds with a large part of the Christian belief. It simply did not make sense! And to believe in eternal hell means the Bible contradicts itself and that God is defeated and that Jesus did not accomplish what He set out to do. All of which is unacceptable.
IMO, it is the vast majority of Christians who are wearing the rose-colored glasses. They refuse to see the truth or answer the hard questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim
So...ya know I love ya...but please don't be offended if I just stay quiet on the dead horse issue in the future.
Jeff,
My desire to not participate any longer is just because all the facts have been presented. It has nothing to do with not addressing the issue, which I think I have done.
I think that the issue at hand is really your struggle with hell in general...and you're questioning God's righteous anger. God demonstrated his love for us in that while we were sinners...he died for us. Those who perish do so because they refuse to believe the truth. It's not because they are too dumb, or can't figure it out, or because we are imperfect. According to scripture it is because they refuse to believe...and none of us have an excuse because God knows the heart and reveals Himself to us via His creations.
It's a matter of belief...either you believe the bible or you don't. Either you trust God or you don't. All of man would love for your sceanario to be correct...it's much more pleasing to man...but the truth is there for all to see only if you believe the bible is true. God's love is not without a day of wrath.
I have enjoyed these little debates...but it just gets to a point where I can't spend any more time on it. There's nothing more to say. It's all there on the table so to speak.
But...I still luv ya...and it's nothing personal. I'm sure we'll catch up on some other thread...like the Harry Potter one! LOL
Jeff,
My desire to not participate any longer is just because all the facts have been presented. It has nothing to do with not addressing the issue, which I think I have done.
I think that the issue at hand is really your struggle with hell in general...and you're questioning God's righteous anger. God demonstrated his love for us in that while we were sinners...he died for us. Those who perish do so because they refuse to believe the truth. It's not because they are too dumb, or can't figure it out, or because we are imperfect. According to scripture it is because they refuse to believe...and none of us have an excuse because God knows the heart and reveals Himself to us via His creations.
It's a matter of belief...either you believe the bible or you don't. Either you trust God or you don't. All of man would love for your sceanario to be correct...it's much more pleasing to man...but the truth is there for all to see only if you believe the bible is true. God's love is not without a day of wrath.
I have enjoyed these little debates...but it just gets to a point where I can't spend any more time on it. There's nothing more to say. It's all there on the table so to speak.
But...I still luv ya...and it's nothing personal. I'm sure we'll catch up on some other thread...like the Harry Potter one! LOL
I do believe the Bible. And the Bible says that hell is redemptive, and temporary. If you choose to not study it out more fully, and cling to what you have been told is the truth, then you are not alone.
Jazzed, we have never even gotten into the words used to describe punishment in the Greek, which are always words that describe cleansing, purifying, or rebuilding. Or that the roots of "lake of fire" directly mean "haven or harbor of divine purification".
Yes, I do believe the Bible. But I would be remiss if I were to simply ignore what I have studied, learned and prayed about. I have looked into the deeper meanings found in the original text and would be lying to myself, God and the world if I denied what the Bible says. IT SAYS...an age of correction, NOT eternal punishment! I can't deny that Jazzed!
Yes, I have always struggled with the idea of eternal punishment. I think that anyone, Christian or non, who truly dwelt on such a thing would easily conclude that this cannot co-exist with the idea of Loving and Perfect God who knows all and controls all. I truly believe that men have ascribed to God imperfections that they would deplore in themselves.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. --Voltaire
The crux of the matter may be in the options given. The statement "believe in the Bible or what the Bible says," doesn't allow for the decisions reached in meditations and prayer when a person listens to what God is telling his or her heart.
I think that we MUST listen for that voice that speaks directly to us. The problems come when we rely only on the Bible. One person devoutly feels that God is speaking to their heart, the other person says, "No, that's not right because the Bible says......."
Who is correct when they do not agree?
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No offense, but that's what I keep seeing...
