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Old 03-12-2011, 06:54 AM
 
570 posts, read 730,719 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post
The bible and other scriptures were written by men. So I can not change gods word, because there is no "gods word".
Exactly ....thats what the topic is all about ...the bible is not gods words .. it was worten by disciples of Christ .. then later on Christian Pastor add on it what they have been told by the rulers of Europe in the Middle Ages ... now since the bible is men words .. the quetion is ... why are you saying that the bible is a holy book ?
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Old 03-12-2011, 07:01 AM
 
570 posts, read 730,719 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill View Post
FACT... there is only ONE version of the quran
FACT... there are many translations of the quran in different languages FROM its ORIGINAL authentic form
FACT... there are thousands if not millions of the billions of muslims in the world from different countries who have memorized the entire Quran in its ORIGINAL arabic form
FACT... if you tossed all the qurans in existence into the ocean it can be RE-WRITTEN in its ORIGINAL arabic form as if it had never been lost in the first place
FACT... you would have known this if you would have read this thread from beginning to end
FACT... you should do more research before you start making false accusations

Last edited by squall-lionheart; 03-12-2011 at 07:49 AM..
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Old 03-12-2011, 07:55 AM
 
570 posts, read 730,719 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cruxan View Post
fact.!!!>> that is your opinion

so you are saying that no one can rewrite the bible from memory.???but millions of people can rewrite the quran without flaws in the new memorized versions.. you are truely dreaming
The fact of all facts ... "Ignorance is your worst enemy" .
Allow me to say that only a few can rewrite the bible from memory but the real question is : which version of the bible are you talking about ?
catholic bible 73 books !!
Protestant Bible have 66 books !!
Orthodox 81 books !!
While all muslims have only one book .
Thats why millions of muslims can easly rewrite it .
I guarantee you that if you make that test you will be Shocked ...

Last edited by squall-lionheart; 03-12-2011 at 08:11 AM..
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Old 03-12-2011, 03:16 PM
 
397 posts, read 606,389 times
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[quote=SeekerSA;18244643]The growth is by muslim population growth, Islam will never become the predominant religion - OK I might rephrase that. Western nations are becoming more secular and xianity is losing traction. Its this coupled with the average higher numbers of muslim offspring vs the average decline in xian offspring that will allow islam to become the predominant religion. This predominance will be isolated to the ME and if Islam ever decided to convert the world by force, they would quickly become the smallest religion. Nukes have a way of leveling the playing fields rather quickly. That said, I have had many dealings with muslim businessmen and find them to be great guys and comparatively more honest than xian businessmen.

Once the oil in the ME dries up, the "west" will have no use for those nations.[quote]

first off, this is completely off the topic of "changing gods word" its going more into "which religion is/will be more predominant", which like i said before theres no point in arguing. and ISLAM, not just a few people, will NEVER convert the world by force. thats not part of our religion and anyone in our religion who converts someone by force is doing it because THEY do it, not because ISLAM says to do it. BIG DIFFERENCE. some people want to judge Islam by what non-muslims say, or what they say on tv. but this is peoples ignorance to research the religion themselves. if you want to be fair, ask a muslim person. ask someone who lives their lives by the religion if you want to be fair...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
Which is exactly what the xians have been doing for centuries. The KJV still the hottest version in the USA has over 20k translation errors. Even attempts to fix this has not worked as the Latin Vulgate was the prime document used to translate to the KJV. Access to Greek manuscripts is subjective as the Greek language has evolved since then. Concordances are supposed to assist the reader as to the original text meaning but there are multiples of this now in existence. I would hazard a guess that Arabic has also evolved somewhat in the last 1600 years. Languages are not static. Even English is a relatively new language.

The point you missed is that the 1st English translation was carried out from an already French translation, any errors in the French version would be extrapolated into the English version. Just like Latin to archaic English was for the xian bible.
your still not understanding the difference between a translation and a version. it doesnt matter how many translations there are or how many times its translated. there are MULTIPLE VERSIONS of the bible. there is only ONE VERSION. this is probably the 20th time I've stated this on this thread and i really wish people would read the thread so I wouldnt have to keep repeating myself. people that try and look at the topic of the thread go through multiple pages of people saying the same thing because people neglect to read the entire thread and just put their take on it even if the issue has already been stated. the difference between a "translation" and "version" discussion has already been clarified and repeated... multiple times.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
Memorizing really has no bearing on anything other than a culture trait that this is encouraged. Memory retention is a skill that can be acquired/learned and does not in any way allude to better aptitude or intelligence. If you learn phrases and can recite them at will, we call that regurgitation if it is merely in a recital role. I knew a student that had the ability to memorize textbooks and in exams recited word for word. He had to unlearn this as he needed to answer in his own words. He never passed one exam.
again with the memorizing... the whole reason i brought UP the whole memorizing ordeal was because if all the qurans, god forbid, were burned, tossed into fire, whatever. it wouldnt matter because so many muslims know the quran word for word in its original arabic form. in the original language. the ONE version that everyone who claims to have memorized the quran has memorized it in its ONE ORIGINAL VERSION. it has nothing to do with what your trying to turn it into. saying "Memory retention is a skill that can be acquired/learned and does not in any way allude to better aptitude or intelligence"... you call it regurgitation... i call it recitation. and there are many people who have MEMORIZED THE ONE ORIGINAL QURAN (NOT A TRANSLATION) AND CAN RECITE IT WORD FOR WORD. reciting from memory. if something were to happen to all the books we can re-write in a matter of a day or two. maybe hours depending upon how fast someone can write. but THAT was the point of the whole "memorize" discussion. it has nothing to do with ones intellectuality, its not about passing an exam, its about preserving the word of God FLAWLESSLY


Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
No they do not all have the same message, they are derivatives of the original Judaism each with their own little twists.
moses said "hear, o israel the lord our god is one lord" (deuteronomy 6:4)

this same statement almost word for word is repeated by christ approx. 1500
years later by jesus christ "... the first commandment is, hear, o israel; the lord our god is one lord" (mark 12.29)

then approx. 600 years later the prophet muhammad
had the same message, "and your god is one god, there is no god but
he" (al-bakarah 2:163)

all came to tell mankind of one main thing BELIEVE IN ONE GOD. sure they performed different miracles, had different followers, etc. but that wasnt my point. my point that they all came with the same message, almost word for word. Jews may believe "they are derivatives of the original Judaism each with their own little twists", but that doesnt change the fact that they all came with a message saying "believe in ONE God". anyone who says what you have is their own opinion. anyone who reads the life of moses, jesus and muhammad will clearly see they were all prophets relaying one main message. and thats something thats not an opinion but can be proven as fact. you saying "they are derivatives of the original Judaism each with their own little twists" you can provide evidence for but if i can prove my claim then that DISPROVES yours. because I'm saying they're not a "spin-off' but rather they are all have the same basis. so that would be like saying Christianity is a "spin off" of Islam, Islam is a "spin-off" of Judaism. It came first, true, but how can something be a "spin-off" of itself? modern day Judaism is a "spin-off" of the Original Judaism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
The fact that your religion can spurn both extremists and moderates does not differentiate you in any way from the others that have the same extremes. Islam is more archaic in that where it is the majority like in the ME, it also is the law of the land. Most cultures have evolved past this but IMO Islam is still in the dark ages. Some of your laws by modern standards are frightening to say the least and like xianity, fear of reprisal either by body mutilation, public beatings or public execution is what keeps folk's opinions to themselves. Xians did this too in the past.
your just saying cultures have evolved. but just because society has decided NOT to do what God has allowed does not make society right and God wrong. I'm glad that we don't chop off hands for stealing anymore. but look how much theft is going on in the United States. people get a "slap on the wrist" and are free to do it again. if you don't have a hand to steal with i can guarantee the chances of you stealing again is EXTREMELY lowered and i can GUARANTEE that a great majority of people who SEES that this is a punishment for stealing will not even think twice about it. big difference between spending a few nights in jail, than losing a hand. I'm not saying that i agree or disagree, what I am saying is that i don't see the theft rate being higher in a society that goes by islamic law, compared to a society that just throws people in jail for a few weeks, months, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
Any religion that treats women that way yours does does not even deserve the time of day. Before you have any hope of convincing anyone yours is better, these simple human rights issues have to be addressed.
o geez, here we go again... use common sense and stop listening to other people and reading different articles. theres millions and millions and millions of muslim women. if you want to be fair ask a MUSLIM woman why she is a muslim. ask her if her if she is treated badly. the answer will be no, a majority of the time. i say a majority of the time because no matter which religion you look to, men mistreat women. even outside of religion women are mistreated. but you cannot blame the religion if the religion does not say to practice that. punish the person who is mistreating women. not an innocent person who wouldn't even imagine mistreating women. you do not know enough about the religion to make a statement like that because if you did you wouldn't have made a statement like that in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
In the ME I would be killed for my worldview as an atheist and particularly if I told a muslim his imaginary friend allah is no more real than any preceding Norse, Greek, Roman, Jewish or pagan god(s).
of course. you would have to be an idiot to say something like that. back in the days if you told a king i don't think your king-like material and I am better than you, pretty sure he would have you killed. i know we don't live back in those days but if you know something like that why would you do it. societies and people are different. if you go to an event with a bunch of African Americans and started calling everyone the "N" word I'm pretty sure they would if not beat you to you last breath, they would definitely do something. It's about having common sense and not being ignorant. I may be killed in the ME if they knew i was an American even though I am a muslim.... doesn't make sense right? that's because it's not the religion telling people to kill someone because they say those things. it's people that are killing people because of the amount of disrespect they feel. I wouldn't even respond to someone who was talking about Allaah, like that. I'd simply just remove myself from that scenario. I don't have to be there listening to it. but you need to understand that your just judging people that caim to follow the religion and not the religion itself. you may find some of bad immoral atheist, bad immoral muslims, bad immoral xians, etc. but that doesnt mean that the religion itself is bad or immoral. that doesnt even mean thats what the religion practices. that just means they are bad immoral people who claim to be part of a particular religion. this is why the preservation of God's word is so important. if we were to lose all the books and just judge peoples religions by their examples and actions, then there would be no good religion or non-religion, no good society, no good group or person. there would only be 3 certain groups. ONE that believes in THE GOD (in arabic The God translates to Allaah), There would be Atheist (Who do not believe in ANY God) and those in between. but the majorities would believe in God or Not believing in God.

I believe that Many people need God in their lives. People agree and disagree. but it's not up to me to FORCE anyone to agree with me or disagree. its up to people themselves.
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Old 03-12-2011, 06:14 PM
 
4,082 posts, read 5,022,808 times
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To the Muslims posting on this thread.... you know questions are a good thing... But questions ought not lead to putting down or degrading anothers beliefs or books...

You have a Qur'an and it is your book and important to you.
Christians have theirs and it is their book and important to them.
Jews have theirs and it is their book and important to them.

It does not matter and you ought not be just asking questions to try to disprove what they believe...
That is really disrespectful in my view..

It also does not show you all in a very good light...

Just my opinion.
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Old 03-12-2011, 08:54 PM
 
9,341 posts, read 29,559,825 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill View Post
... and all three religions may say something different, but they all believe in one god. the difference with christianity is that it has made that one god into a trinity.
But, that difference -- altering G-d into a Trinity -- violates the Mitzvah (Commandment) that prohibits the worship of all but the one true, and indivisible, G-d.

A Jew can worship in a Mosque because Muslims worship the one G-d, but Jews may not worship in a Church, because Christians practice idolatry in the Churches with their worship of the Trinity, the worship of other than the one true, and indivisible, G-d.

.
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Old 03-12-2011, 08:57 PM
 
9,341 posts, read 29,559,825 times
Reputation: 4572
Quote:
Originally Posted by squall-lionheart View Post
Exactly ....thats what the topic is all about ...the bible is not gods words .. it was worten by disciples of Christ .. then later on Christian Pastor add on it what they have been told by the rulers of Europe in the Middle Ages ... now since the bible is men words .. the quetion is ... why are you saying that the bible is a holy book ?
You're referring to the Christian Bible, not the Bible.
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Old 03-12-2011, 08:58 PM
 
397 posts, read 606,389 times
Reputation: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
To the Muslims posting on this thread.... you know questions are a good thing... But questions ought not lead to putting down or degrading anothers beliefs or books...

You have a Qur'an and it is your book and important to you.
Christians have theirs and it is their book and important to them.
Jews have theirs and it is their book and important to them.

It does not matter and you ought not be just asking questions to try to disprove what they believe...
That is really disrespectful in my view..

It also does not show you all in a very good light...

Just my opinion.
i do see where your coming from... and i understand because i used to feel the same way... why can't we all just get along?...

my opinion is...
its all about proving the truth and trying to help others on what you believe is the straight path to god. if your son or daughter are hanging out with the "wrong crowd" or going down a path that is not good for them would you just let them keep going astray? knowing that this is not good for them? no. would u allow it with your brother? sister? siblings? the answer is no. its only human to care for others and do what you can to help.

i cannot speak for anyone else on this thread because i do not know them and i don't know if their intentions are the same as mine, however, im not trying to "disprove" anyone. I'm trying to teach people what Jesus REALLY said, not just what people have interpreted. I'm trying to explain others, at least from my point being a christian to islam convert, why there IS so much confusion when discussing the Modern Day Christian Bibles. But only if they ask. I have yet to just start making claims on this thread or forum that i cannot prove. I have also said several times that i am not here to offend anyone or anything similiar to hurt anyones feelings. if they have questions i'll try and answer them IF i have the answers.

Jazzymom, if you have gotten offended by anything i have said then let me know. because honestly, up until now i have not been trying to argue, or debate, or put down any other religions. I honestly thought we were just having a discussion or dialogue. As a christian coming to islam i know that i am not the only one and that others may be asking the same questions i had because they do not understand, and thats what i am trying to do. answer the questions that i can with the knowledge that i have obtained. however I'm not just saying "christians are so stupid because they believe god is a trinity!". thats not what i do. if anything, no one has asked yet but for example if someone ask me, "as a muslim that was once a christian, why do you not believe in the trinity when it says so in the bible?", legitimately asking me. no arguing, no debating, just answering a question i will tell them. the OP's question was about the modern day Christian bibles saying different things. why are they not word for word, which is also something I, MYSELF wondered... and then i simply gave an answer.

not being hostile, not being rude, not having any bad intentions, but simply answering the question in a way i thought was appropriate. i provided evidence so people don't think i'm just saying things out of arrogance or ignorance. i dont do that. i provide proof to my claims and allow you to decide for yourself whether you take what i say as fact or fiction, however, if someone, even you responds with a question or claim, i will again answer it in an appropriate manner, u won't see a bunch of or "you actually believe in a trinity ??!! "....


i believe THAT is disrespectful... and i am not doing that. i'm honestly just trying to have a discussion with some people on the city data forum. this section was made for that reason, so people can come together and discuss, ask questions, etc. there will be some ignorant people yes but there will also be people who are asking legitimate questions wanting legitimate answers. thats what i am trying to do.
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Old 03-12-2011, 09:12 PM
 
397 posts, read 606,389 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan View Post
But, that difference -- altering G-d into a Trinity -- violates the Mitzvah (Commandment) that prohibits the worship of all but the one true, and indivisible, G-d.

A Jew can worship in a Mosque because Muslims worship the one G-d, but Jews may not worship in a Church, because Christians practice idolatry in the Churches with their worship of the Trinity, the worship of other than the one true, and indivisible, G-d.

.
wow! i did not know this! have you, assuming your jewish from our discussions on the thread, ever personally gone into a mosque and worshiped?

and yes i agree that we do have some differences, but I was only trying to say that before the Christian religion adopted the idea of a trinity 3oo years after Christ, they believed in one God. Jews follow Moses who said "God is ONE", Muslims follow Muhammad who said "God is ONE", and Christians should be following Christ who said "God is ONE". Jesus himself, who are the Christians example, the person who the Christians try and live by never said there was a trinity which is why this "trinity" idea was adopted AFTER Christ's departure from this earth. I'm not sure how you feel about all this assuming your Jewish or how others may take this considering some are Christians but i am not trying to offend anyone of any religious background. I'm only trying to show people what i have personally researched and discovered. some may agree and some may disagree but im also not trying to disprove the Christian faith. i believe the true christian faith was permissible, but Modern day Christianity and how it has evolved and changed, i don't believe is what Christ said...
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Old 03-12-2011, 09:14 PM
 
4,082 posts, read 5,022,808 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill View Post
i do see where your coming from... and i understand because i used to feel the same way... why can't we all just get along?...

my opinion is...
its all about proving the truth and trying to help others on what you believe is the straight path to god. if your son or daughter are hanging out with the "wrong crowd" or going down a path that is not good for them would you just let them keep going astray? knowing that this is not good for them? no. would u allow it with your brother? sister? siblings? the answer is no. its only human to care for others and do what you can to help.

i cannot speak for anyone else on this thread because i do not know them and i don't know if their intentions are the same as mine, however, im not trying to "disprove" anyone. I'm trying to teach people what Jesus REALLY said, not just what people have interpreted. I'm trying to explain others, at least from my point being a christian to islam convert, why there IS so much confusion when discussing the Modern Day Christian Bibles. But only if they ask. I have yet to just start making claims on this thread or forum that i cannot prove. I have also said several times that i am not here to offend anyone or anything similiar to hurt anyones feelings. if they have questions i'll try and answer them IF i have the answers.

Jazzymom, if you have gotten offended by anything i have said then let me know. because honestly, up until now i have not been trying to argue, or debate, or put down any other religions. I honestly thought we were just having a discussion or dialogue. As a christian coming to islam i know that i am not the only one and that others may be asking the same questions i had because they do not understand, and thats what i am trying to do. answer the questions that i can with the knowledge that i have obtained. however I'm not just saying "christians are so stupid because they believe god is a trinity!". thats not what i do. if anything, no one has asked yet but for example if someone ask me, "as a muslim that was once a christian, why do you not believe in the trinity when it says so in the bible?", legitimately asking me. no arguing, no debating, just answering a question i will tell them. the OP's question was about the modern day Christian bibles saying different things. why are they not word for word, which is also something I, MYSELF wondered... and then i simply gave an answer.

not being hostile, not being rude, not having any bad intentions, but simply answering the question in a way i thought was appropriate. i provided evidence so people don't think i'm just saying things out of arrogance or ignorance. i dont do that. i provide proof to my claims and allow you to decide for yourself whether you take what i say as fact or fiction, however, if someone, even you responds with a question or claim, i will again answer it in an appropriate manner, u won't see a bunch of or "you actually believe in a trinity ??!! "....


i believe THAT is disrespectful... and i am not doing that. i'm honestly just trying to have a discussion with some people on the city data forum. this section was made for that reason, so people can come together and discuss, ask questions, etc. there will be some ignorant people yes but there will also be people who are asking legitimate questions wanting legitimate answers. thats what i am trying to do.
No it is not..... You have your belief and I have mine and in order for the folks of different faiths they need to just accept that other have a way to believe....

That is the truth and the only truth....
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