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kaykay, this sounds like the discussion Jeff and I had on Love and Passion.
I have a hard time understanding jealousy without selfishness since jealousy is an emotion dealing with protection of self interest and/or possession. It seems a requirement to have a certain amount of selfish interest in order to become jealous. God's use of Jealous to describe his nature was in regard to sharing his worship with other gods. Why use this term if selfishness was not key to this refusal to share? He did not choose to explain his motives for any of the other commandments. It makes me think God felt he needed to explain this one because it created an incongruity in the minds of the people.
I think the word "selfishness" to me has a negative connotation which I would not apply to God. In the natural sense, I think I could have a righteous jealousy regarding my marriage covenant without being "selfish." It's probably just semantics here.
1 Peter 3:18-20: For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, who in former times did not obey . . .
And...
1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.
Most commentaries I have seen do not agree on the meaning of these verses. I know my belief, as I have made plain.
Didn't God make it plain He desires that ALL come into the knowledge of the Truth? That no one be lost?
Actually, most Bible's do not say calamity. The Greek word used here for evil is the word ra`. It's numerous adjectives describing the meaning all mean the same thing--bad, evil, malignant. It is in fact the same exact word used in the Tree of of the knowledge of Good and Evil. (Which God created.)
This doesn't even get into the verse I quoted (one of several) that states, quite plainly, that God created Satan with the purpose of being a destroyer.
Yeah, you and I definitely differ on our understanding of those scriptures.
Like I said, he does desire all to 'attain to repentance' but not all will. I think that's evident and again, if you don't believe mankind has free will then arguing about that would be pointless.
'Truly, you have a dizzying intellect'. I still am clueless as to how you can determine from any of these cited verses that God is the originator of Evil. The bible calls Satan the 'father of the lie', not God. Still a very confusing bit of theology to me...but I'll leave it there.
As far as the scripture that states God created 'evil', perhaps I'm thinking of a different one because the last one you brought up that stated that definitely showed the word 'calamity' in most translations.
And I'm sorry again, but the scriptures you are referring to (if read in context) do NOT allow us to conclude that Satan was created to be the destroyer but that he BECAME that of his own volition.
Actually, Philippians 2 provides a VERY good overall answer for the ? to this point.....
3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.
4 Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
God's Word would not teach AGAINST a nature He Himself possesses, so NO, God is NOT *Selfish*...*JEALOUS* of other Gods in light of the Commandments, but NOT *Selfish*........
John 3:16 also addresses the purely UN-Selfish nature of God.
Yeah, you and I definitely differ on our understanding of those scriptures.
Then we are like almost all of our Christian brothers and sisters---most of us have differing understandings---makes ya think, ya know?
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada
Like I said, he does desire all to 'attain to repentance' but not all will. I think that's evident and again, if you don't believe mankind has free will then arguing about that would be pointless.
You may have missed my earlier posts in a completely different thread a few weeks ago (you were MIA I think ) where I admitted to some deviousness...I actually believe that the whole freewill thing is somewhat of a paradox (yes that word again) and flaws can be found in just about every aspect of all sides of the argument. I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle--we have a sort of free will, but that God is setting everything up in such a way that, eventually, all will come to him by choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada
'Truly, you have a dizzying intellect'.
Really? Or is this another way of saying I make no sense?
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada
I still am clueless as to how you can determine from any of these cited verses that God is the originator of Evil. The bible calls Satan the 'father of the lie', not God. Still a very confusing bit of theology to me...but I'll leave it there.
Because Satan is the father of the lie. But God created all that is. God is all-knowing. When coupled with the many scriptures that make this plain, I really don't see how anyone can come to any other conclusion. Again, this all goes back to God's plan. Was He forced to come up with a Plan B (thwarted by his own creation!), or did declair all that was to be from the beginning?
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada
As far as the scripture that states God created 'evil', perhaps I'm thinking of a different one because the last one you brought up that stated that definitely showed the word 'calamity' in most translations.
Okay. So what do you think about the verse in question, since proper exegesis shows it does indeed mean evil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada
And I'm sorry again, but the scriptures you are referring to (if read in context) do NOT allow us to conclude that Satan was created to be the destroyer but that he BECAME that of his own volition.
The word "waster" is shachath in the Hebrew. It means to pervert or destroy utterly.
I John 3:8 says "He that commits sin is of the DEVIL [Gk: Adversary, Satan] for the Devil SINS FROM THE BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the WORKS of the Devil"
So was it AFTER a supposed "Lucifer archangel" metamorphosed into Satan that he sinned, or did Satan the Adversary sin "from the BEGINNING?
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Then we are like almost all of our Christian brothers and sisters---most of us have differing understandings---makes ya think, ya know?
You may have missed my earlier posts in a completely different thread a few weeks ago (you were MIA I think ) where I admitted to some deviousness...I actually believe that the whole freewill thing is somewhat of a paradox (yes that word again) and flaws can be found in just about every aspect of all sides of the argument. I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle--we have a sort of free will, but that God is setting everything up in such a way that, eventually, all will come to him by choice.
Really? Or is this another way of saying I make no sense?
Because Satan is the father of the lie. But God created all that is. God is all-knowing. When coupled with the many scriptures that make this plain, I really don't see how anyone can come to any other conclusion. Again, this all goes back to God's plan. Was He forced to come up with a Plan B (thwarted by his own creation!), or did declair all that was to be from the beginning?
Okay. So what do you think about the verse in question, since proper exegesis shows it does indeed mean evil.
The word "waster" is shachath in the Hebrew. It means to pervert or destroy utterly.
I John 3:8 says "He that commits sin is of the DEVIL [Gk: Adversary, Satan] for the Devil SINS FROM THE BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the WORKS of the Devil"
So was it AFTER a supposed "Lucifer archangel" metamorphosed into Satan that he sinned, or did Satan the Adversary sin "from the BEGINNING?
GIve the verse again. I'll read it and let you know...the one about 'evil'.
He has been sinning from the beginning of 'man's existence', not from his creation. And since it says he that 'commits sin if of the DEVIL', we must assume that the devil did indeed originate sin.
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Do i look like i READ greek and hebrew???
LOL
Actually, Philippians 2 provides a VERY good overall answer for the ? to this point.....
) where I admitted to some deviousness...I actually believe that the whole freewill thing is somewhat of a paradox (yes that word again) and flaws can be found in just about every aspect of all sides of the argument. I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle--we have a sort of free will, but that God is setting everything up in such a way that, eventually, all will come to him by choice.
