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GIve the verse again. I'll read it and let you know...the one about 'evil'.
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
The Greek word used here for evil is the word ra`. It's numerous adjectives describing the meaning all mean the same thing--bad, evil, malignant. It is in fact the same exact word used in the Tree of of the knowledge of Good and Evil. (Which God created--shouldn't that alone make us think?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada
He has been sinning from the beginning of 'man's existence', not from his creation.
It doesn't say that Alice. It says from the beginning, without any additional qualifiers. That means the beginning.<-----That's a period right there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada
And since it says he that 'commits sin if of the DEVIL', we must assume that the devil did indeed originate sin.
Yes, the devil originated sin. But again, who orginated the devil? Christendom assumes that God’s creation of humans malfunctioned -- they did NOT!
They also assume that God is not responsible and does not take responsibility -- He DOES!
Think about it--When a scientist creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is he responsible for the malfunction? Yes. Does he hold the experiment or machine responsible? No. Does he hold God responsible? No. Okay.
Now then, according to Christendom, when God creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is He responsible for the malfunction? No. Does He hold the experiment or machine responsible? Yes. Does He hold man responsible? Yes. See my point?
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
The Greek word used here for evil is the word ra`. It's numerous adjectives describing the meaning all mean the same thing--bad, evil, malignant. It is in fact the same exact word used in the Tree of of the knowledge of Good and Evil. (Which God created--shouldn't that alone make us think?)
It doesn't say that Alice. It says from the beginning, without any additional qualifiers. That means the beginning.<-----That's a period right there.
Yes, the devil originated sin. But again, who orginated the devil? Christendom assumes that God’s creation of humans malfunctioned -- they did NOT!
They also assume that God is not responsible and does not take responsibility -- He DOES!
Think about it--When a scientist creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is he responsible for the malfunction? Yes. Does he hold the experiment or machine responsible? No. Does he hold God responsible? No. Okay.
Now then, according to Christendom, when God creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is He responsible for the malfunction? No. Does He hold the experiment or machine responsible? Yes. Does He hold man responsible? Yes. See my point?
Just look at the sentence structure, Jeff. It says 'I form the light and I create darkness' (dark and light are opposites, right?)...THEN it states 'I make PEACE and create EVIL. ' The evil you seem to think this is referring to, that is evil in the absolute sense, is NOT the opposite of peace...it is the opposite of goodness, rightness. Therefore, since both the bibles I checked (the New King James bible and the New World Translation) translate that word 'calamity', a new perspective is place on the verse. The NKJV references also Ecc 7:14 which talks about a 'calamitous' or 'evil' day. This shows me that evidently the verse is referring to Jehovah's destructive power, not his being the originator of evil. As I'm sure you're aware...the Greek language does not have the same depth of descriptive words that ours does, so though the same word may be used in many different situations-the sentence structure and context must be studied to confirm the real meaning.
1 John 3:8 is also quite clear when taken in context. Look at the point the bible writer is trying to make...avoid practicing sin. Why would he be referring to the pre-human existence of Satan? Before mankind was created, sin was not an issue...it became an issue w/ Adam and Eve. So 'beginning' in this verse MUST be speaking of the beginning of sin.
You claim that a loving God could never ever torment ANYONE forever and I agree with you. You feel God's love will eventually save everyone. Well, I feel that if God is as loving as we believe, planning the fall of mankind from the beginning and actually CREATING the evil that we face is even more unloving than hellfire.
Your illustration also holds no water with me. Malfunction is a term I would use for something that is PROGRAMMED to behave a certain way and then, for whatever reason, goes haywire. Malfunction doesnt qualify for humans because humans aren't programmed. We have a mind that allows us to make decisions and a conscience that helps guide us. If we ignore our conscience and make decisions that go against our creators wishes, we are the culprit...not him.
Just look at the sentence structure, Jeff. It says 'I form the light and I create darkness' (dark and light are opposites, right?)...THEN it states 'I make PEACE and create EVIL. ' The evil you seem to think this is referring to, that is evil in the absolute sense, is NOT the opposite of peace...it is the opposite of goodness, rightness. Therefore, since both the bibles I checked (the New King James bible and the New World Translation) translate that word 'calamity', a new perspective is place on the verse. The NKJV references also Ecc 7:14 which talks about a 'calamitous' or 'evil' day. This shows me that evidently the verse is referring to Jehovah's destructive power, not his being the originator of evil. As I'm sure you're aware...the Greek language does not have the same depth of descriptive words that ours does, so though the same word may be used in many different situations-the sentence structure and context must be studied to confirm the real meaning.
Actually, I find the Greek to be much more descriptive. The most common example is the word love. We have one word in English to describe...my love for my wife, my love for my kids, my love for the town and state I live in, love for my parents, love for a good piece of fudge...
Greek has 5 different words for the word love, 3 of which were around when the Bible was written.
There are many poor Bible translations out there, of which some are good in parts, poor in others. I find that it is best to go back to the original wording that was inspired by God--not any commentaries that inevitably add someone's personal opinion. The original word, given to the writers of the Bible by God Himself, was the Hebrew word ra`. As previously stated, it denotes evil. Not calamity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada
1 John 3:8 is also quite clear when taken in context. Look at the point the bible writer is trying to make...avoid practicing sin. Why would he be referring to the pre-human existence of Satan? Before mankind was created, sin was not an issue...it became an issue w/ Adam and Eve. So 'beginning' in this verse MUST be speaking of the beginning of sin.
No, it mustn't. I think we should be careful not to add to the Bible. It says what it says.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada
You claim that a loving God could never ever torment ANYONE forever and I agree with you. You feel God's love will eventually save everyone. Well, I feel that if God is as loving as we believe, planning the fall of mankind from the beginning and actually CREATING the evil that we face is even more unloving than hellfire.
Yes, having a God who is truly in control and is bringing about every little thing He has purposed and planned from the Beginning is a bit of a sting to our pride. Here we go again, but for God to truly be omniscient, He would have to know about the fall of mankind and all that this fall entails before He did it. I don't see it as unloving at all--I see that He knows the End, which is a Happy Ending for all. So temporary discomfort is simply part of the learning process that He is bringing His creation through. It's all okay, in other words, because God is in control.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada
Your illustration also holds no water with me. Malfunction is a term I would use for something that is PROGRAMMED to behave a certain way and then, for whatever reason, goes haywire. Malfunction doesnt qualify for humans because humans aren't programmed. We have a mind that allows us to make decisions and a conscience that helps guide us. If we ignore our conscience and make decisions that go against our creators wishes, we are the culprit...not him.
We are his creation. We don't see the big picture as He does. How can we truly make an informed decision about our eternal destiny from this side of the grave?
Few have ever stopped long enough to consider that just maybe God intended for the world to be in the hellish mess that we find it. Not for all eternity, but for the present, for a period of time, for a great purpose. It just seems so wrong to Christian thought to believe that God would have purposed such an evil and unhappy world. But look at the alternative. Are we to believe that God tried (albeit unsuccessfully) to make a good creation, but was unaware of its potential to run amok? And ever since, God must therefore either lack the love for humanity to straighten it out, or He lacks the power and ability. But either way it disowns God’s sovereignty and presents us with a God Who either CANNOT or WILL NOT STOP THE INSANITY! Orthodoxy would have us believe that God’s solution to rid the world of sin and evil is to torture most of humanity in fire for all eternity.
The whole idea is blasphemous. If a carnal-mined human can take responsibility for an invention that malfunctions, I submit, that God is bigger and more responsible than puny man. Let it be it known to all that God takes full responsibility for His creation, and absolutely nothing in His creation is malfunctioning
Actually, I find the Greek to be much more descriptive. The most common example is the word love. We have one word in English to describe...my love for my wife, my love for my kids, my love for the town and state I live in, love for my parents, love for a good piece of fudge...
Greek has 5 different words for the word love, 3 of which were around when the Bible was written.
There are many poor Bible translations out there, of which some are good in parts, poor in others. I find that it is best to go back to the original wording that was inspired by God--not any commentaries that inevitably add someone's personal opinion. The original word, given to the writers of the Bible by God Himself, was the Hebrew word ra`. As previously stated, it denotes evil. Not calamity.
No, it mustn't. I think we should be careful not to add to the Bible. It says what it says.
Yes, having a God who is truly in control and is bringing about every little thing He has purposed and planned from the Beginning is a bit of a sting to our pride. Here we go again, but for God to truly be omniscient, He would have to know about the fall of mankind and all that this fall entails before He did it. I don't see it as unloving at all--I see that He knows the End, which is a Happy Ending for all. So temporary discomfort is simply part of the learning process that He is bringing His creation through. It's all okay, in other words, because God is in control.
We are his creation. We don't see the big picture as He does. How can we truly make an informed decision about our eternal destiny from this side of the grave?
Few have ever stopped long enough to consider that just maybe God intended for the world to be in the hellish mess that we find it. Not for all eternity, but for the present, for a period of time, for a great purpose. It just seems so wrong to Christian thought to believe that God would have purposed such an evil and unhappy world. But look at the alternative. Are we to believe that God tried (albeit unsuccessfully) to make a good creation, but was unaware of its potential to run amok? And ever since, God must therefore either lack the love for humanity to straighten it out, or He lacks the power and ability. But either way it disowns God’s sovereignty and presents us with a God Who either CANNOT or WILL NOT STOP THE INSANITY! Orthodoxy would have us believe that God’s solution to rid the world of sin and evil is to torture most of humanity in fire for all eternity.
The whole idea is blasphemous. If a carnal-mined human can take responsibility for an invention that malfunctions, I submit, that God is bigger and more responsible than puny man. Let it be it known to all that God takes full responsibility for His creation, and absolutely nothing in His creation is malfunctioning
But neither of the translations I quoted DENIED what yours says...just used the proper English term for the thought conveyed. You can't deny that the opposite of evil is not PEACE...therefore CALAMITY is a better descriptive word for the point of the verse. I am familiar w/ the greek word you are so painstakingly trying to use to prove your point...and it can be used in several different contexts. So I'll just say that yes, in the context that evil is being used in that scripture...I absolutey agree. God can and will create the type of evil that verse is speaking of.
Do you mean to tell me that you NEVER use your thought process to determine what a scripture is trying to say? I didnt add anything...I simply used my god-given power of reason to come to an understanding of the verse. If you are truly going to take every word of the bible at face value, Jeff...you're going to run into lots of problems. I guess we better start believing in hellfire since the bible SAYS there's a lake of fire in there.
I absolutely agree that NOTHING in God's creation has malfunctioned. I also agree that God has a purpose and that he is loving. Therefore I cannot agree w/ your beliefs. They contradict both of those statements, in my opinion.
But neither of the translations I quoted DENIED what yours says...just used the proper English term for the thought conveyed. You can't deny that the opposite of evil is not PEACE...therefore CALAMITY is a better descriptive word for the point of the verse. I am familiar w/ the greek word you are so painstakingly trying to use to prove your point...and it can be used in several different contexts. So I'll just say that yes, in the context that evil is being used in that scripture...I absolutey agree. God can and will create the type of evil that verse is speaking of.
I think it's made pretty obvious within the very same verse--contrasting light with darkness...??? Additionally, the word used is evil, not calamity, which the Hebrew does have an equivalent for. If that is what God meant, why not inspire the writer to write calamity? IMO, it takes some back-flips to skirt the obvious meaning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada
Do you mean to tell me that you NEVER use your thought process to determine what a scripture is trying to say? I didnt add anything...I simply used my god-given power of reason to come to an understanding of the verse. If you are truly going to take every word of the bible at face value, Jeff...you're going to run into lots of problems. I guess we better start believing in hellfire since the bible SAYS there's a lake of fire in there.
Of course I do! I'm doing it now! I'm not saying that one can't come to the conclusion you have (obviously), but that it is indeed adding to the (to me) plain meaning of the verse if so. I can see how one might think this is referring to sin since the verse is within that context, but then why doesn't the verse make this explicate if so? It simply says---from the beginning. To me, the obvious inferrance is to the Beginning of Everything. Just as Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. (Why slain before Adam and Eve made their mistake? Hmmm...maybe God knew what was going to take place before it did?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada
I absolutely agree that NOTHING in God's creation has malfunctioned. I also agree that God has a purpose and that he is loving. Therefore I cannot agree w/ your beliefs. They contradict both of those statements, in my opinion.
If nothing has malfunctioned (for lack of a better word) Alice, then why do you believe that Man and Satan brought sin into the world by disobeying God? Obviously something went wrong if they went against God's original intent.
I think it's made pretty obvious within the very same verse--contrasting light with darkness...??? Additionally, the word used is evil, not calamity, which the Hebrew does have an equivalent for. If that is what God meant, why not inspire the writer to write calamity? IMO, it takes some back-flips to skirt the obvious meaning.
Of course I do! I'm doing it now! I'm not saying that one can't come to the conclusion you have (obviously), but that it is indeed adding to the (to me) plain meaning of the verse if so. I can see how one might think this is referring to sin since the verse is within that context, but then why doesn't the verse make this explicate if so? It simply says---from the beginning. To me, the obvious inferrance is to the Beginning of Everything. Just as Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. (Why slain before Adam and Eve made their mistake? Hmmm...maybe God knew what was going to take place before it did?)
If nothing has malfunctioned (for lack of a better word) Alice, then why do you believe that Man and Satan brought sin into the world by disobeying God? Obviously something went wrong if they went against God's original intent.
Okay you lost me on the first sentence so I'll just say that as far as evil goes IN THAT VERSE, God does create it, absolutely. His destructive power has been clearly seen from almost the beginning of mankind and therefore, in that sense, he can surely be 'blamed' for all the mayhem that ensues. And I'm personally happy that he takes action of that sort.
So using your reasoning about 1 John 3:8: You said, ' Satan was evil from the BEGINNING OF EVERYTHING'. What is this mysterious 'everything' you are referring to? Or are you thinking the 'beginning' of our world? If so, why would Satan have suddenly become evil when God started creating the earth? And if he was indeed created evil, why did he wait so long to start some trouble? Do you think he was in some type of heavenly 'quarantine' waiting for the perhaps thousands of years of creation to lapse before he was let out to do his supposed job? Or was he allowed to associate w/ the other 'good' angels? (Just so's you know, I am not expecting you to answer those questions because well, ya can't. Just trying to bring the idea into focus.)
No, nothing went 'wrong' w/ God's creation when Adam and Eve sinned. His creation was still perfect. They simply made the decision to rebel. And they were punished. But God wasnt about to let their decision dictate his actions. His purpose for the earth remained the same and it still does, to this day.
Okay you lost me on the first sentence so I'll just say that as far as evil goes IN THAT VERSE, God does create it, absolutely. His destructive power has been clearly seen from almost the beginning of mankind and therefore, in that sense, he can surely be 'blamed' for all the mayhem that ensues. And I'm personally happy that he takes action of that sort.
Okie-dokie. (Although I don't know if I can honestly say I'm happy about the Flood, or other such acts of God).
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada
So using your reasoning about 1 John 3:8: You said, ' Satan was evil from the BEGINNING OF EVERYTHING'. What is this mysterious 'everything' you are referring to? Or are you thinking the 'beginning' of our world? If so, why would Satan have suddenly become evil when God started creating the earth? And if he was indeed created evil, why did he wait so long to start some trouble? Do you think he was in some type of heavenly 'quarantine' waiting for the perhaps thousands of years of creation to lapse before he was let out to do his supposed job? Or was he allowed to associate w/ the other 'good' angels? (Just so's you know, I am not expecting you to answer those questions because well, ya can't. Just trying to bring the idea into focus.)
Jeez, Alice, I wasn't there! LOL. The beginning I'm referring to is obvious, I should think--the beginning of his existence.
I think God created Satan with a seed of rebellion planted amongst some things that appeared good. Therefore, God knew that satan would eventually rebel. He fulfilled, and continues to fulfill, his purpose. We are to fight against that. Again, God has a learning process He is bringing His creation as a whole through.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada
No, nothing went 'wrong' w/ God's creation when Adam and Eve sinned. His creation was still perfect. They simply made the decision to rebel. And they were punished. But God wasnt about to let their decision dictate his actions. His purpose for the earth remained the same and it still does, to this day.
So then you agree that God intended for them to rebel and for the world to be in the state it has been since then? This is true if, as you say, nothing went wrong with God's creation.
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, but for God to truly be omniscient, He would have to know about the fall of mankind and all that this fall entails before He did it. I don't see it as unloving at all--I see that He knows the End, which is a Happy Ending for all. So temporary discomfort is simply part of the learning process that He is bringing His creation through. It's all okay, in other words, because God is in control. 
I guess we better start believing in hellfire since the bible SAYS there's a lake of fire in there. 
Do you think he was in some type of heavenly 'quarantine' waiting for the perhaps thousands of years of creation to lapse before he was let out to do his supposed job? Or was he allowed to associate w/ the other 'good' angels? (Just so's you know, I am not expecting you to answer those questions because well, ya can't. Just trying to bring the idea into focus.)
Lol Im ...
