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**Warning--Jeff is not trying to start another discussion about you-know-what. However, this topic does skirt around the edges of this topic so it may be brought up. I will, however, sincerely endeavor not to do so.**
In the following verses, Jesus is speaking.
John 5:22 says "Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son."
Yet John 12:47-48 says "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a Judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."
This verses, on the surface, seem contradictory. Yet...
In John 10:30, Jesus says "I and the Father are one."
As Christians who believe in the Trinity, we believe that Jesus exists both seperately from God and as a part of the Godhead. But since Jesus is the Son of God, He is His own person, so to speak.
Who judges us on judgement day? Or is this a paradox not meant to be understood now?
could it be that Jesus judges those that are his and God judges those who didnt accept Christ? ****just a thought for discussion***** not a thought out personal belief.
Last edited by arguy1973; 07-25-2007 at 09:45 AM..
Reason: ms a word
could it be that Jesus judges those that are his and God judges those who didnt accept Christ? ****just a thought for discussion***** not a thought out personal believe.
Very interesting thought arguy--hadn't really thought of that. However, in the 1st verse, Jesus says that the Father judges no one.
Alice--what about the other verse, that says God is the Judge?
Alice--what about the other verse, that says God is the Judge?
Because ultimately, he is. Jesus would not have that authority during the judgement day were it not given him by his father. Also, Jesus had not been crowned King of God's kingdom yet at that time...that appointment was not given him until later.
John 5:22 is talking about a separate judgment. There will be two judgments after death. The first is whether or not you have accepted Jesus as savior and therefor redeemed by his sacrifice. God will not judge man at that time, Jesus will recognize his true followers and accept them while rejecting those that did not accept him (regardless of what they public proclaimed).
Those rejected due to lack of acceptance by Jesus are immediately condemned, but still not judged other than a judgment of faith or conviction.
The second judgment is the one that God will do and that is the punishment phase of the trial. All those recognized as believers by Jesus will be rewarded according to their works. Remember, you were saved strictly by faith. That got you into heaven. Now you will be given your heavenly rewards according to the works you performed on earth. All those not recognized by Jesus were condemned and are now assigned punishment according to their works as well.
As a God of justice, it does not make sense that reward or punishment would be the same for different levels of works or sins. A person who has followed Jesus' teaching faithfully for 50 years ought to be rewarded more than one that willfully rejected Jesus for 49 years and followed him faithfully only the final year of their life, don't you think? Likewise the person who rejected Jesus but lived an exemplary life should not be punished as badly as the avowed Satan worshipper, should they?
The first judgment is an all or nothing in or out type of decision that Jesus makes based upon your acceptance of him in your heart. God in fact has no part in this. The second judgment is of works and Jesus has no part in that.
I have not given a great deal of thought on the structure of the Trinity, nor the physical existence of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. My concept is that one entity is God and God has different roles to play in our lives. To help us keep those roles clear and to understand how he can perform those roles without conflict, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost represent those roles. Whether they are physically separate or not is immaterial since Jesus says they are one. If they are separate, they have the same authority so the word of one has the same force and effect as any of the others, and if they are combined, they perform their task single threaded and without overlap as if they were separate. Jesus is the compassion and God is the blind justice, as illustration of two potentially conflicting roles.
How can Jesus send us to Hell if he is compassionate? He doesn't, he only decides if we accepted him. God's role has no compassion, only justice so he can assign punishment or reward without regard to compassion as God is judging works and not people. Jesus forgives, God judges.
There is only judgement for non believers.... that is , those who do not accept Christ as their savior, through faith. Those who do not accept Christ will be judged by their "works". or their life. This is essential doctrine to the Christian faith. Those who do accept Christ, have already paid the price for their salvation through Christ, they need do nothing but believe and accept this free gift, and proclaim it (baptism). If we are good enough to earn our way to salvation... Christ would have never been necessary.
Christ by his sacrafice has taken the sting of judgement upon himself, through his blood ... and now is our intercessor with the Father, He is our defender. In John 3:16 Christ proclams the way.
Ok so for all of you that don't think you need belief and good works how does that work?
And what does it mean to be condemned for not believing but to be judged by your works for punishment? Does this mean that some will not be punished for not believing?
There is only judgement for non believers.... that is , those who do not accept Christ as their savior, through faith. Those who do not accept Christ will be judged by their "works". or their life. This is essential doctrine to the Christian faith. Those who do accept Christ, have already paid the price for their salvation through Christ, they need do nothing but believe and accept this free gift, and proclaim it (baptism). If we are good enough to earn our way to salvation... Christ would have never been necessary.
Christ by his sacrafice has taken the sting of judgement upon himself, through his blood ... and now is our intercessor with the Father, He is our defender. In John 3:16 Christ proclams the way.
There is absolute truth.
No, there is judgment for both believers and non-believers. Both are judged by works. Only the believers are already redeemed and the non-believers are already condemned. Compare to our court system, you have the trial phase and the penalty phase. Jesus conduct the trial to determine if you are a believer. If you are not, then you are directed to the Penalty phase. If you are, then you are directed to the reward version of the Penalty phase.
Ok so for all of you that don't think you need belief and good works how does that work?
And what does it mean to be condemned for not believing but to be judged by your works for punishment? Does this mean that some will not be punished for not believing?
Please elaborate on what you mean with your first statement. I read it as needing neither. Most belief structures I am aware require one or the other as their criteria.
On the second, I do not believe that anyone escapes judgment. Condemnation occurs as a result of belief and judging occurs based on works, good or bad.
Those that have true belief are not condemn due to Christ's redemption on the cross, so they being forgiven of all sin have only good works credited to them upon judgment.
Those that do not have belief are already condemned and have all their works, good and bad, weighed and judged accordingly. Condemnation in of itself warrants punishment, so a non-believer who faithfully followed every commandment of Jesus throughout his entire life and never, even from birth, committed a single errant act aside from rejecting Jesus as savior would still be condemned and punished. His punishment would undoubtedly be the lightest possible compared to all other condemned, but yes, he would receive punishment for his lack of faith.
Under the Old Testament covenant, sacrifice was required to purify oneself to enter into the presence of God. Jesus became the ultimate sacrifice under the New Testament covenant. Since the Law still exists, the sacrifice is still required, lack of acceptance of Jesus is tantamount to stepping into God's presence without a sacrifice. Under the Old Testament covenant that was punishable by death.
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Arguy got it!
