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Anything in science can be falsified, David. Otherwise, it isn't science. The Big Bang, which is the natural explanation for the origin of the universe, is no exception. I've explained how it can be falsified.
Except we're discussing what caused the Big Bang to happen, naturalistic processes or God. I agree that the Big Bang happened, but I've asked you to back up your claim that we can test and falsify whether the universe has a naturalistic origin. You certainly have not explained how a naturalistic origin for the universe can be tested and falsified. I've kept asking you, and you've kept dodging the question. If I'm wrong, feel free to explain how it can be.
Since we have no evidence of a purposely created universe, you are making an unsupported assumption.
Just as we have no evidence of a naturalistically-created universe. All I'm asking is how, as you claim, CMBR is evidence of naturalistic creation rather than purposeful creation. All they're evidence for is that the Big Bang happened.
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And yet the vast bulk of the universe is utterly incapable of supporting life.
Just as the vast majority of lottery players don't win. That doesn't mean that lotteries aren't set up to have occasional winners.
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The lottery isn't set up for people to win.
So you think that when people win millions of dollars on the lottery, it wasn't supposed to happen?
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It is set up for the State and the people who run it to make money. That people win is all about chance. So you are agreeing that the universe, and all the life in it is a game of chance?
I think it's quite possible that which planets end up with life on them is largely a game of chance, yes. But I also believe that our universe is set up so that at least some planets will inevitably end up with life on them, just as lotteries are set up so that some people will inevitably win gobs of money.
Any gambling outcome not by pure chance is called rigged.
You say it is then say it isn't
So which is it?
With your god argument, are you saying it is or isn't 'rigged'?
Is there an intellignce behind your creation that set up the outcome?
Lottery numbers are produced by random number generators. So there are certain (very low) odds that a person will win. Now, unless you believe that random numbers are somehow not truly random, or magically become non-random, I fail to see a point in your argument.
The lottery number generators are set up to guarantee that at least some of those who buy tickets will win money. It uses the same sets of numbers as the people play (If the players have to guess seven numbers between 1 and 40, then the number generators will pick seven numbers between 1 and 40, for example). If the generators could pick any number between 1 and 1,000,000,000,000,000, while the people playing could only pick between 1 and 40, then we would probably expect no one to win, ever. If the lottery generator could only pick one number, then someone correctly predicting all seven numbers that the generator picks would be impossible, since it would never pick seven numbers. The way the game and the generator are set up, someone is practically guaranteed to win on occasion, even if we have no way of determining in advance who this person will be.
But for the record, I don't believe that lottery generators end up generating truly random numbers, because I don't believe it's currently possible to generate truly random numbers, only pseudo-random numbers (which are practically just as difficult to predict).
Are you seriously suggesting that people set up lotteries SO that OTHER people can win now and then?
Yes.
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Buddy, people set up lotteries so that THEY win all the time. Its just by lucky chance that a lot of saps WANT to redistribute their wealth through gambling.
So it's just by "chance" that people go out and buy lottery tickets? Are you seriously saying that lotteries aren't set up to encourage people to choose to buy tickets? If so, why not make it so that no one ever wins the lottery? Why not make it impossible to win? If people will buy tickets by pure chance anyways, then the lottery people will make exactly the same amount of money, and never have to pay out a penny to any pesky "winners".
Any gambling outcome not by pure chance is called rigged.
You say it is then say it isn't
So which is it?
When did I say it was rigged? It's not, as far as I know.
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With your god argument, are you saying it is or isn't 'rigged'?
It's not rigged there, either, as far as I know. Just set up so that occasional "winners" (that is, planets capable of creating and sustaining life) are inevitable.
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Is there an intellignce behind your creation that set up the outcome?
Yes, just as there is in intelligence behind the lottery that sets up the fact that there will be occasional winners now and then.
When did I say it was rigged? It's not, as far as I know.
It's not rigged there, either, as far as I know. Just set up so that occasional "winners" (that is, planets capable of creating and sustaining life) are inevitable.
Yes, just as there is in intelligence behind the lottery that sets up the fact that there will be occasional winners now and then.
But they would also be produced if the universe was purposely created
Proof of this claim? Let's see a rigorous theory of creation which predicts these results more accurately than science.
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so how are they evidence for naturalistic creation?
They are predicted by naturalistic theories about the universe and later observations matched the theory. What else could you hope for from a model used to predict things than predicting those things accurately?
It's the opposite of how creationists work - they pick and choose evidence first and then say that god did it. It's really easy to make predictions after the fact. It's just not very convincing.
ALL micro-matter behaves the same in the double slit experiment.
So what? That does nothing towards advancing your theory, yet fits mine. If the double slit experiment is done with gold atoms (and I have no idea if it has been) and it shows an interference pattern, it still fits the "matter does not exist until observed" theory, and is antithetical to the "matter objectively exists" one.
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At no time does energy cease to exist, particles just don't seem to have as straight trajectories as were predicted but instead have "probability" trajectories. the implications being that...
The implications are, as I've repeatedly said, that our reality is virtual, and that matter isn't matter until and unless it's under observation.
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I don't know enough about the double-slit experiment to keep talking about this, I need to know the depth of the slits and whether experiments have been done with more accurate guns that aren't meant to randomly shoot particles near the vicinity of the two slits but instead directly at the OPENING of one..
KNOWING which slit will collapse the probability wave. As has been repeatedly proven.
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Your argument is basically that the laws of quantum physics and thus Physics in general wouldn't exist unless we were a virtual reality... in essence your argument is that we can't exist unless we are a virtual reality...
That's not my argument at all. My argument, and the data and experimental results support me completely, is simply that we DO exist in a virtual reality. Not that we must, not that physics wouldn't exist or any other nonsense. Simply, we do.
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if not then explain how the "higher" reality works... do their electrons show two parallel lines? do their photons exhibit wave-particle duality? All that this reality could be a prove of is THIS reality, not that there must be a "higher" or "lower" reality.
Knowing this reality is virtual tells us nothing about the "higher" reality beyond the fact that "it is". It also is indicitative of your consciousness being a part of that reality, as this one doesn't really exist, yet our consciousness does.
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Read Descartes... He would think that the "Virtual Reality" is being dreamed up by Jesus, you and me included.
Well, if Jesus actually existed and did even a portion of the works credited to him, I would say he was a very advanced being, along the lines of the Buddah. But I don't think he intended his followers to behave as they have.
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P.S. the substrate of light could be space-time. electrons aren't observed to "become" waves but to leave "wave-like" patterns when shot one by one in mass through double slits.
Space-time is not a substrate. And physical particles are either particles (that don't make "wave-like" patterns) or they are waves, that do. Under the objective reality hypothesis, they can't be both.
Did you know that light moves slower through barriers, say a piece of glass or a body of water? Did you also know that light does not go in a straight line when encountering such an obstacle, rather it takes the quickest path?
Imagine this. You are a life guard. On your watch, off in the distance, you see someone struggling. Now, you are intelligent, and you realize that you can run accross the sand faster than you can swim, so instead of going in a straight line to the person in need of rescue, you run down the beach and swim only as far as necessary.
Light essentially does the same thing.
Does the photon know it runs faster through air than water? Or is it simply that all probabilities are being calculated, and the one that gets there first is the one that is rendered?
Which makes more sense to you? For objective reality to exist, the photon itself must be making decisions. Do you think photons are sentient?
The lottery number generators are set up to guarantee that at least some of those who buy tickets will win money.
Hogwash. Lottery numbers are generated with random number generator algorhthyms. They are set up to be RANDOM. Whether or not you believe they are is irrelevant, particularly since you've presented no mathematical proof to confirm your suspicions.
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