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I cannot honestly believe there is a serious discussion going on which pertains to the reality of whether or not dragons exist(ed). I went and re-read the section of Job that Campbell is referring to and I can come to no other conclusion than it is referring to a dragon. Perhaps a crocodile, but I doubt it based on some of the other descriptions. The thing is that almost every single culture has had a myth, of some sort, about dragons. The Greeks alone had myths about a number of different dragons: The Chimaera, The Hydra, The Colchian Dragon, The Trojan Dragon, etc...
Even in the 17th Century, people spoke of dragons. The novel Don Quixote speaks of the knight's desire to slay a dragon. Of course, the bumbling knight mistakes a windmill for a dragon but, then again, the context of some of the conversations would lead one to believe that dragons were thought of as reality in such an era.
Tolkien, in his works, spoke of dragons. In fact, one of the centerpieces of his book The Hobbit was about a dragon that Bilbo Baggins is to slay.
None of that means that dragons are actually real creatures. Why there is an argument over this, I simply cannot fathom.
Verse 21 tells us that out of his breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth. Never saw a Elephant or Hippo do that before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34
I do understand that nothing living today breaths fire. So I would not say such a fire breathing dinosaur would be impossible. Especially when we have such an example. There are many things we do not know about dinosaurs. So I believe suggesting that nothing that ever lived could shoot fire from it's mouth. Is a belief that could not be confirmed. It's clear the Bible has details of the past that we are just beginning to learn of today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34
Oh please, I was not trying to say they actually breathed fire. I was trying to convey that they had the ability to shoot fire out as a defensive weapon. Much like the Bombardier beetle having the ability to explosively shoot out 212 deg. liquid as a defensive weapon. And do so without hurting itself. Inside the beetle there are mixing chambers that make this possible. And this is not lunacy, it is just another fact that appears your not aware of.
No doubt if the beetle was nolonger around, you would be telling us no creature has ever had the ability to emit a 212 deg. fluid from an orifice. The fact is, you don't know if such a fire breathing creatures existed. And we have numerous historical records that suggest they did. Anything you can't see with your eyes, you call mythical. Especially if it supports the Biblical account. What I find low, is how you will call the historical record a ridiculous assertion based on no evidence. Just personal opinion. NO SOUP FOR YOU.
The fact is the heat generated by a beetle with a simple biological chemical reaction does not equal flame.
I'm having so difficultly following exactly what you believe your "dinosaur" was able to do. Clearly you don't believe that it stored the fire within itself like a furnace. Do you think this animal to be more like a living blowtorch? Does the animal produce a flammable liquid or gas which is shot from it's mouth that is then somehow ignited?
If you look at the verses you so lovingly fawn over they seem to contradict a fire squirter.
19 Out of his mouth go flaming torches;
sparks of fire leap forth.
20 Out of his nostrils comes forth smoke,
as from a boiling pot and burning rushes.
21 His breath kindles coals,
and a flame comes forth from his mouth.
And lastly I know you love to trot out the beetle and it's 212deg spit but how can you look at the temperature charts below and still want to equate the two? Open candle flame 1,830F just a bit more than your beetle.
Even a lit cigarette 752F still more than 3X your bug. So even if your beast was some kind of bizarre reverse flatulence lighter the temperatures generated would severely damage any orifice somehow able to issue open flame. Please to be naming any living tissue able to withstand open flame. Keep in mind the properties of fire and that any visible flame is a minimum of 977F.
I just love this subject. Even where the thread got sidetracked. To date, we have uncovered less than 1 % of the fossil record. Every year, there are new discoveries, and it is entirely possible that the fossil remains of a dragon simply have not been found yet. Think about it. The great ape of Africa was a myth until the mid 20th century when someone "discovered" them. For a hundred years, prior to that, they were just a myth. So, a more accurate response would be to say that the existence of dragons has not been verified as of yet. Until then, they will remain a myth.
As for the teaching of evolution and creationism in our schools, it seems that everyone is looking at this argument from the wrong angle. In the final accounting, science and religion are going to have to coincide. God could not have created a world some 40,000 years ago that had already existed for some 5.4 billion years. But, let me ask all of you one question.
How many years in one of God's days? For a Diety that is all powerful, all knowing, and etc, who are we to limit Him to a 24 hour day, just because that's what we have? I'm going to suggest that the term "day" is relative, rather than cold and hard fact. If we consider one of God's days to be about 770 million years long, then evolution becomes an instrument of God's handy-work. And, from what I have learned, over the years, God does seem to have a penchant for using natural events to impress his will upon the earth and it's inhabitants.
Is God real? You bet he is. Do we know him? Not nearly as well as we'd like to believe we do. For one thing, most of us do not dig deep enough into the correlation between science and religion. And, there's actually a very strong correlation that not only proves his existence, but also scratches the surface into his methods. You might say that he's actually a pretty cool dude with some pretty subtle ideas. But, you do not find that out simply by reading biblical text.
So, when it comes to the teaching of creation and evolution in schools, I would say that both need to be taught. But, also, where science and biblical text correlate, that also needs to be taught.
Is God real? You bet he is. Do we know him? Not nearly as well as we'd like to believe we do.
And I bet he's not real.
There is no evidence, nothing tangible, nothing measurable, nothing that increases the estimate of probability that there is a god.
Read the bible, the koran, any ancient book of myths and again we see no logic, no science, nothing to support the notion of a god.
Listen to people's testimony of their 'relationship' with a god and again, all in the person's mind. No two way communication that normal human relationships are based on.
Any claim that god is real or ghosts or haunted houses or supernatural goings on is pure baloney conjured up in the minds of the gullible.
There is no evidence, nothing tangible, nothing measurable, nothing that increases the estimate of probability that there is a god.
Really? Nothing to increase the estimate of "PROBABILITY" that there is a God?
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Originally Posted by Djuna
Read the bible, the koran, any ancient book of myths and again we see no logic, no science, nothing to support the notion of a god.
Is it possible that you have not studied the right science?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djuna
Listen to people's testimony of their 'relationship' with a god and again, all in the person's mind. No two way communication that normal human relationships are based on.
Ok. You've got me there. Of course, since God is not a normal human being, I don't think a normal human relationship can be expected. Not really.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djuna
Any claim that god is real or ghosts or haunted houses or supernatural goings on is pure baloney conjured up in the minds of the gullible.
Suppose we go to Exodus. Shall we?
The river flowing red like blood, and everything in the river dying. Also, anything that drinks the water dies as well. That was chemicals spewing from a volcanic vent. It does turn the water red like blood and is very highly toxic. Core samples of the river bottom have confirmed that. And, I don't remember just where, but it has happened at least once in the last 60 years.
Next, we have the death of Egypt's first born. Might even have been the same volcanic vent, but this time, it was carbon dioxide. Since Egypt's first born slept in a place of honor on the ground floor, and siblings slept on the roof, it was only the first born that suffocated. Why didn't any of the Hebrews die? Lamb's blood around the doors and windows acted like a caulking to keep the CO2 out. This has also happened twice in the last 60 years, and hundreds of people and thousands of cattle were killed.
The plague of locusts? They migrate over Egypt twice a year. When there is an inversion layer and the upper air is too cool, they come down to earth and become a plague. It's believed that it has happened hundreds of times since the time of Moses.
Since Moses was to have spent his last days on top of Mount Sinai and was buried there, they've come to find that they've had the wrong Mount Sinai all these years. They found Moses's grave on top of a mountain some 70 miles north of what we know of as Mount Sinai. After that, underwater surveys of the sea floor of the "Reed Sea" shows that about the time of Exodus, there were two geological events that happened back to back.
The Hebrews had their backs against the sea, and the Egyptian Army was coming. The ground shook, a portion of the sea floor was thrust above water level, and the Hebrews crossed... Not between two walls of water as has been depicted, but on a land bridge. After they all crossed, and the Egyptian Army began to pursue them, the ground shook again. The land bridge sank down to it's current level. The proof of that is also in the artifacts of the drowned Egyptian Army found in the silt at the bottom of the sea. The resulting tsunami drowned every last man and animal on that land bridge. And, if you don't think this is possible, look at Japan. Not a land bridge, but the force of the quake. If it were centered in a lake, a land bridge might have been possible as well.
So... Each and every one of them were a natural event. Nothing there to say that God exists, is there? Well, please explain the timing. Each succeeding event happened with more precise timing than the one before. The last one, virtually to the minute. When you start counting something like 7 events, it's no longer a random series. Would you like to explain just who was at the controls? In previous posts, I've stated that God seems to have a penchant for using natural events to impress His will upon the earth and it's inhabitants.
Now, your turn. Do you have any scientific evidence that suggests that God does not exist?
That ain't the way it works...It is always up to the ones making fantastic claims to provide the evidence...
LOL...You are kidding right? There is exactly the same amount of evidence for the existence of god as there is for the troll that lives in my basement. Why don't you prove that my basement troll is non existent? Please do, so I can sleep better at night...
Now, your turn. Do you have any scientific evidence that suggests that God does not exist?
Doesn't work pal! How it DOES work is if you were to take each of the events you mentioned and provide objective, verifiable evidence that they did actually happen. If you can't do that, your events remain what they are....stories in a book that has been proven to be mostly fable, fiction and fraud.
The river flowing red like blood, and everything in the river dying. Also, anything that drinks the water dies as well. That was chemicals spewing from a volcanic vent. It does turn the water red like blood and is very highly toxic. Core samples of the river bottom have confirmed that. And, I don't remember just where, but it has happened at least once in the last 60 years.
I think you're thinking of the Lake Nyos disaster in Cameroon about 25 years ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_windwalker
Next, we have the death of Egypt's first born. Might even have been the same volcanic vent, but this time, it was carbon dioxide.
Except that there aren't any meromictic lakes like that in Egypt. The kind of outgassing you're talking about requires very particular geological conditions that just don't exist in Egypt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_windwalker
Since Egypt's first born slept in a place of honor on the ground floor, and siblings slept on the roof, it was only the first born that suffocated.
You know this how? That's a serious question, I'm woefully ignorant on ancient Egyptian sleeping arrangements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_windwalker
Why didn't any of the Hebrews die? Lamb's blood around the doors and windows acted like a caulking to keep the CO2 out. This has also happened twice in the last 60 years, and hundreds of people and thousands of cattle were killed.
Did you seriously just post that?
If this works, why did DHS tell us to seal off our windows/doors with duct tape in the event of a chemical/biological attack? All we need is a bucket of lamb's blood and a good brush...
The river flowing red like blood, and everything in the river dying. Also, anything that drinks the water dies as well. That was chemicals spewing from a volcanic vent. It does turn the water red like blood and is very highly toxic. Core samples of the river bottom have confirmed that. And, I don't remember just where, but it has happened at least once in the last 60 years.
Next, we have the death of Egypt's first born. Might even have been the same volcanic vent, but this time, it was carbon dioxide. Since Egypt's first born slept in a place of honor on the ground floor, and siblings slept on the roof, it was only the first born that suffocated. Why didn't any of the Hebrews die? Lamb's blood around the doors and windows acted like a caulking to keep the CO2 out. This has also happened twice in the last 60 years, and hundreds of people and thousands of cattle were killed.
The plague of locusts? They migrate over Egypt twice a year. When there is an inversion layer and the upper air is too cool, they come down to earth and become a plague. It's believed that it has happened hundreds of times since the time of Moses.
Since Moses was to have spent his last days on top of Mount Sinai and was buried there, they've come to find that they've had the wrong Mount Sinai all these years. They found Moses's grave on top of a mountain some 70 miles north of what we know of as Mount Sinai. After that, underwater surveys of the sea floor of the "Reed Sea" shows that about the time of Exodus, there were two geological events that happened back to back.
The Hebrews had their backs against the sea, and the Egyptian Army was coming. The ground shook, a portion of the sea floor was thrust above water level, and the Hebrews crossed... Not between two walls of water as has been depicted, but on a land bridge. After they all crossed, and the Egyptian Army began to pursue them, the ground shook again. The land bridge sank down to it's current level. The proof of that is also in the artifacts of the drowned Egyptian Army found in the silt at the bottom of the sea. The resulting tsunami drowned every last man and animal on that land bridge. And, if you don't think this is possible, look at Japan. Not a land bridge, but the force of the quake. If it were centered in a lake, a land bridge might have been possible as well.
So... Each and every one of them were a natural event. Nothing there to say that God exists, is there? Well, please explain the timing. Each succeeding event happened with more precise timing than the one before. The last one, virtually to the minute. When you start counting something like 7 events, it's no longer a random series. Would you like to explain just who was at the controls? In previous posts, I've stated that God seems to have a penchant for using natural events to impress His will upon the earth and it's inhabitants.
Now, your turn. Do you have any scientific evidence that suggests that God does not exist?
Your chronology is wrong, perhaps read here for a natural explanation.
Doesn't work pal! How it DOES work is if you were to take each of the events you mentioned and provide objective, verifiable evidence that they did actually happen. If you can't do that, your events remain what they are....stories in a book that has been proven to be mostly fable, fiction and fraud.
It would take some time to dig up all the sites again, but you could start with the program about the "NAKED ARCHAEOLOGIST". I seem to remember that it's one of the topics he covered once. That was what got me digging into it.
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