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Old 04-11-2011, 07:55 PM
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,392 posts, read 12,666,331 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
So what you are saying is that we have a contradiction.

I do like this bit though.....

"Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them."

So much for the god of 'love' eh?
Why was God angry at them?
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Old 04-12-2011, 12:35 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 7,191,936 times
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BBD

TY for the replies. I re read the link you gave and it confirms the one I posted as to the migration.

As for the conversion factor it is IMO a bit of self fulfilling. I have no bloodline whatsoever of Jew in me and chances are if DNA analysis was done there would be nothing. The issue I have is that looking at the history since 70CE, the numbers of Jews seems to be very low for a folk that were not exterminated at that time. The population growth post the holocaust tends to fly with normal pop growth. IIRC from my link there were about 15M 1930 and -6M leaves us with 9M post WWII where most of the stats of migration and pop growth comes from.

I did a calculation once of just two couples surviving in 70CE and each having 5 offspring that survive again to each having 5 offspring of their own with three generation living at any one time (ignoring genetics of 1st cousins merely for a mathematical calculation)

I did this on a spreadsheet and coming to today we should in fact have in the order of 440M+ Jews worldwide. As you know this is not the case, also there were likely more than two surviving couples.

I have posed this question and researched yet I cannot find any known records of any other holocaust type event, the best answer I got was the black plague and some inference to what happened in Russia.

I read that there was a huge conversion to Judaism in the area of Turkey which make up the majority of those alive today. Khazar ? Ashkenazi Jews?

During the 8th century, Khazar royalty and much of the aristocracy converted to Judaism

This Timeline of Jewish history - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shows three other instances of Jews being massacred but nothing on the order of WWII.

What am I missing or do we really have true bloodline dating back to 70CE?





For C34

1917
The British defeat the Turks and gain control of Palestine. The British issue the Balfour Declaration 1917 which gives official British support for "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people...it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine". Many Jews interpret this to mean that all of Palestine was to become a Jewish state.[23]

1930
World Jewry: 15,000,000. Main countries USA(4,000,000), Poland (3,500,000 11% of total), Soviet Union (2,700,000 2% of total), Romania (1,000,000 6% of total). Palestine 175,000 or 17% of total 1,036,000.
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Old 04-12-2011, 12:38 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,799,268 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Why was God angry at them?
That has nothing to do with contradiction that you have given us.

God doesn't change his mind.
God did change his mind.

Which is it??
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Old 04-12-2011, 09:09 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,868 posts, read 12,511,976 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
BBD
The issue I have is that looking at the history since 70CE, the numbers of Jews seems to be very low for a folk that were not exterminated at that time. The population growth post the holocaust tends to fly with normal pop growth. IIRC from my link there were about 15M 1930 and -6M leaves us with 9M post WWII where most of the stats of migration and pop growth comes from.
I have read that there were about 17 to 18 million in 1939, and about 12 million in 1945. that may represent growth from 1930 to 1939, or different sources.

Quote:
I did a calculation once of just two couples surviving in 70CE and each having 5 offspring that survive again to each having 5 offspring of their own with three generation living at any one time (ignoring genetics of 1st cousins merely for a mathematical calculation)
You are severely overestimating the number of surviving offspring per couple in a preindustrial society. Most families lived close to hunger, most children died in childhood. Try running those numbers on say the population of rome, or china. I think you will see why that does not work. Googl "demographic transition". Most preindustrial societies had slow population growth most of the time - and Jews were in the same boat as everyone else.

Quote:
I read that there was a huge conversion to Judaism in the area of Turkey which make up the majority of those alive today. Khazar ? Ashkenazi Jews?
It happened, but most scholars think it was not huge. It makes up a small portion of the ancestry of ashkenazic Jews (and some of the Jews who lived in the Khazar kingdom were not converts, but Jews who fled there from the Byzantine empire)

A much larger (but slower and less dramatic) conversion took place in the roman empire - many pagans converted to Judaism (some of course converted to Christianity) before the newly christian empire banned that.

recent DNA studies suggest that Ashkenazic Jews have about 60% of their ancestry in common with sephardic Jews (and thus is ancient) and about 40% not, and almost all of that 40% is italian, southern france, etc - implying it took place in Roman times. There is little if any trace of the Khazars or other later conversions.


Quote:
What am I missing or do we really have true bloodline dating back to 70CE?
Its impossible to know "bloodlines" completely from DNA. I wouldnt focus on DNA, but look at the history of the people. We can see that the Jews of eastern europe lived there since the middle ages. They moved to their mostly from Germany and northern France - there is continuity in culture, language, and religion. The jews of germany and northern france came from italy and southern france - where they went to in Roman times from Israel and mesopotamia.

The history of the jewish people - social, cultural, religious - is fascinating. I am not sure why people get hung up on the Khazars. I believe that is because some people beleive if they can prove some (nonexistent) discontinuity in "bloodline" they can somehow challenge the legitimacy of the state of Israel. Ignoring the existence of the modern state. Ignoring that close to half the jewish population of the state is sephardic/mizrahi (whom they overlook). Twisting the demographic history of the jews. And defining the Jewish claim as one of a race, rather than of a nation.





For C34

1917
The British defeat the Turks and gain control of Palestine. The British issue the Balfour Declaration 1917 which gives official British support for "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people...it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine". Many Jews interpret this to mean that all of Palestine was to become a Jewish state.[23]

1930
World Jewry: 15,000,000. Main countries USA(4,000,000), Poland (3,500,000 11% of total), Soviet Union (2,700,000 2% of total), Romania (1,000,000 6% of total). Palestine 175,000 or 17% of total 1,036,000.[/quote]
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Old 04-12-2011, 09:42 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 7,191,936 times
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TY,my beef is not with the state of Israel per se but moreso the crap associated with the endtimers taking this 1948 as some prophetic clock.

There does seem to be conflicting sources and looking at the link I posted there does seem to be a disjointed history.

As for my model, I was taking 5 survivors as a reasonable number that get to breeding age. My own parents came from families of 7 & 8 survivors and there were mortalities that never made it to breeding age or reproduced, I was assuming a 40-50% survivability. Quite a few infant deaths on both sides and deaths in the teens. Both families had 10 -12 kids.
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Old 04-12-2011, 11:26 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,868 posts, read 12,511,976 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
TY,my beef is not with the state of Israel per se but moreso the crap associated with the endtimers taking this 1948 as some prophetic clock.

There does seem to be conflicting sources and looking at the link I posted there does seem to be a disjointed history.

As for my model, I was taking 5 survivors as a reasonable number that get to breeding age. My own parents came from families of 7 & 8 survivors and there were mortalities that never made it to breeding age or reproduced, I was assuming a 40-50% survivability. Quite a few infant deaths on both sides and deaths in the teens. Both families had 10 -12 kids.

Did you live in the middle ages? 10 to 12 kids with 7 to 8 survivors is not what we are talking about. 10 to 12 kids with 2 to 3 survivors is what we are talking about. In most preindustrial societies, EXCEPT those that had a sudden relaxation of hunger constraints (like settlers in the new world, or any people just after a major agricultural advance) hunger and illness acted as a check on population. population growth over time was slow

International Programs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_transition
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Old 04-12-2011, 11:29 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,868 posts, read 12,511,976 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
There does seem to be conflicting sources and looking at the link I posted there does seem to be a disjointed history.
I am still not sure what you mean by a disjointed history.
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Old 04-12-2011, 01:18 PM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 7,191,936 times
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Starting new thread.
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Old 04-13-2011, 02:16 AM
 
7,628 posts, read 10,947,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
You moved the goal posts when I clearly showed that migration is not happening, I did not say the prophesy is null and void, I used your bible to show the movement alleged to happen to make this come true is not happening. From your link I showed you that they said that increase is in the increased birth rates and that they stated migration was insignificant. Your link not mine. You just never read the whole thing but we all know that is how you operate. People breeding in Israel post 1948 is no miracle or rocket science. I would like to use other words here but I may not, so I will simply say people do it and babies are a result.

The high breeders are anyway the ultra orthodox and the folk you lot are aligned with as they have the same aspirations as you for rebuilding the temple and reintroducing animal sacrifice yet you keep claiming that the returning Jews are the ones that have defile his word, make you blooming mind up will you.

What happened in 1948 and 1990 is of no significance. The current trends are opposite to your claims. White folk left SA in droves in the 90's many are returning now, the population still increased since then, it proves nothing apart from the fact more people do it (and more often) = more babies = more population, no rocket science needed to work that out.


I really do not give a **** what Twain said nor do I take that into cognizance. As for Jews not being able to migrate you are taking out of you know what. There have always been Jews in Palestine pre 1948. Page back and look at my links and see there was already a large migration prior to 1948. WWII just accelerated the return of some but not all.

Even if they outbreed their diaspora counterparts and the majority (51%) are then found in Israel, they have a ways to go before they the woo lot become the majority and change the laws. It will fail as their kids will have to leave for greener pastures to pursue careers and family of their own. Israel cannot support a population too big as it has limited resources. This is why the Zionists want to expand to get their hands on their neighbor's resources. Neither the US nor the UN nor Russia will allow that to happen.

All you are trying to do is make your book of fables align with an ever changing reality and you constantly fail. Even our Jewish folk here have told you you are talking BS.

The "prophesies" I posted which your whole argument is based on has absolutely nada to do with Israel 1948.

Carry on however, is is fun watching you squirm.



So your saying the 800 thousand Russian Jews that migrated to Israel in the 1990s did not happen? Or the thousand that have already come from Europe did not happen? Or the thousands that came from Africa did not happen? Or is it that past history has no significance to you? Trends come and go. And some years migration is down in Israel, and some years it is up. Please don't base Israels future on trends that come and go.

And your wrong about Israels limited resources. It appears you are not aware that they just discovered major oil and gas deposits off of Israels coast. The greener pastures are not that many miles off shore from Israel. And they don't have to go to their neighbors to get it. And if their neighbors did not go against the U.N. mandate and try to drive the Jews into the sea. Their neighbors might have a little more land to live on.

GAS FIELD CONFIRMED OFF COAST OF ISRAEL

It was said that Israels field named Leviathan has at least 16 trillion cubic feet of gas at a likely market value of tens of billions of dollars and should turn Israel into an energy exporter.

Clearly the Bible prophecies stated that oil would be found in Israel. Now you can deny another prophecy SeekerSA.LOL

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/31/wo...leviathan.html

The Discovery Of Oil In Israel

http://signsofthelastdays.com/archiv...-oil-in-israel

Last edited by Campbell34; 04-13-2011 at 03:21 AM..
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Old 04-13-2011, 05:02 PM
 
1 posts, read 727 times
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I figure, prayer can be all those: monologue, dialogue, acknowledgment, response...and also a mental quest for insight into life, revealing amazing experiences.
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