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American society disagrees. If humanity is endowed at conception, we would issue death certificates and hold funerals for miscarriages.
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Originally Posted by RuralMissionary
American society's opinion is irrelevant. Truth is not determined by popular opinion.
And many people do have funerals for miscarried babies.
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Originally Posted by Annie53
Funny, if so many people are having funerals for fetuses, why have I never seen an obit in the paper giving calling hours, etc.?
What about the 6-9 week miscarriages.....when most abortions are done? Do people have funerals for those? Really? What do they bury/cremate? Do they have a casket, embalming, a gravesite?
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Originally Posted by RuralMissionary
whatever. I personally have known a few that did. arguing over numbers isn't much value.
So, when your statement was challenged, you changed your story. Now, where are the links to the obits? Where is the funeral director's price list? How much does a casket cost for a miscarriage? Does the embalmer need special training to learn his craft when dealing with little blobs of tissue? After all, you brought this topic up.
The only person on the board that presents a logical and reasonable argument to allow legal abortion, is Mystic (which would figure)...and that is the argument that only "members of society" are to be protected by the rights/laws that are granted or enforced by a society...and you don't "gain membership" into the society until you are born.
I feel you "gain membership" once you exist as a human life separate and distinct from any other human life...and that has been scientifically proven to occur at fertilization (conception). In her uterus, or outside of it...it's still a separate, individual human from her, so the Mother should be as responsible for it's care and safety as she should be at any other point in it's existence as a minor child of hers that's in her custody...and she should suffer the same consequences for any neglect in her responsibility to provide that care as the law would provide for at any other point in the childs' life.
So I disagree with his argument...but at least his premise is logical and reasonable...unlike most others I read.
Thank you, my friend but I think Annie53 details just SOME of the many issues raised by your perspective on societal enforcement of membership rights for the unborn. It is not and can not be a societal issue. It truly is between the would-be child's mother and God, Gldn. We can be horrified and repulsed by many of the things others choose to do in this world . . . but we must limit the ones that we criminalize for very good reasons. Read Annie53's post again and see if you can catch the flavor for the myriad issues that would be raised by legalizing your views. Peace and God bless, my friend.
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Originally Posted by Annie53
So, what do you think should be done to women who smoke, drink, eat a bad diet, or are overweight to the detriment of a fetus?
Yes, being overweight can harm a fetus.
Should they be jailed? Should the child be taken away and put up for adoption?
Are we going to put a woman on trial if she miscarries or has a child born with deficiencies?
"You took a ride on your bike and fell down? You fetus killer! Off to jail with you!"
"Ma'am, we have witnesses that will testify that you ate too much junk food during your pregnancy! No wonder your child was born with "fill in the blank". Off to jail with you!"
"Ma'am, you suffered a miscarriage in a car accident while taking an unnecessary trip in your car.....you should have known better than to ride in a car unless it was absolutely necessary.....you subjected your fetus to unnecessary risk. Off to jail with you!"
"Ma'am, is it true that you painted your home and had been breathing paint fumes before your miscarriage? Off to jail with you!"
"Ma'am, didn't you know you were too fat to get pregnant?....that your excess weight would be bad for the fetus? Off to jail with you!"
Ma'am, you knew you had a stressful job before you became pregnant. Maternal stress is bad for the fetus. You should have quit your job before you became pregnant. No wonder you miscarried. Off to jail with you!"
Ma'am, you knew you were a possible carrier of "X,Y,Z genetic syndrome.....and you chose to get pregnant and subject a poor, innocent fetus to a life of suffering? Off to jail with you!"
Really? This is the kind of world you want pregnant women to live in?
It's all about THE FETUS! ONE missstep by Mom and she will be put on trial!
If you miscarry or have a defective child.....you better be able to prove in a court of law that it wasn't because of something you did or didn't do.
Who in the hell would want to take the chance of carrying a pregnancy in a world like that?
Instead of having abortions.....women will be clamoring to get sterilized.
GldnRule, meet RuralMissionary. The two of you should enjoy each other's company discussing "human at conception" fantasies.
No mensaguy...not "fantasy" Bro, actually current science.
You can argue with that if you want...like those that argue against evolution...but that's what's current relative to the issue. "Life" begins at conception, and it IS "human" life. There may be a few "renegades" that claim otherwise, but the matter is pretty much settled in the overall scientific community. That it may not be settled in YOUR OPINION, is on you...not the scientific FACTS.
The scientific community has nearly UNIVERSALLY determined and declared when the life of a "UNIQUE, SEPARATE, HUMAN BEING" begins. That the current overall scientific community claims they have determined HUMAN LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION, is a fact...the only thing that is disputable is whether they are correct...it's NOT disputable that it is their near complete consensus.
AGAIN...anyone disputing a distinct separate human life begins at conception is contesting KNOWN SCIENCE.
BTW...I'm not saying I KNOW they are right...I BELIEVE they are...I have FAITH they are---and they MIGHT BE WRONG...but I doubt it.
A miscarriage is a tragic loss that deserves to be treated with care and sensitivity. Diminishing it in the service of a pro-abortion agenda is unnecessary, ugly, and cruel.
Thank you, my friend but I think Annie53 details just SOME of the many issues raised by your perspective on societal enforcement of membership rights for the unborn. It is not and can not be a societal issue. It truly is between the would-be child's mother and God, Gldn. We can be horrified and repulsed by many of the things others choose to do in this world . . . but we must limit the ones that we criminalize for very good reasons. Read Annie53's post again and see if you can catch the flavor for the myriad issues that would be raised by legalizing your views. Peace and God bless, my friend.
I read it Mystic.
My prediction is it won't be long before it's not just the decision of the Mother, but new laws are enacted...like they always are.
Bet that you'll see a lot of changes in the future.
Don't be surprised at what sanctions could be applied for what may be determined to be neglect.
Years ago the was no penalty for not having a baby in a car seat (I never had one)...but now it's considered neglect and is punishable by law. If the preborn are legally designated human beings there could be a whole plethora of laws that are levied.
When I was a child, as a standard form of punishment for just about any wrongdoing, my Father used to pull my pants down, hold me off the floor by one arm, and apply strikes with a leather belt or a whip type switch. A backhand slap to the side of the face was common discipline for infractions as simple as "talking back". Back then there were no legal sanctions what-so-ever for that type of discipline, and most employed it...now it's considered "abuse" and there a serious legal consequences for it...and I mean SERIOUS.
I knew parents that would take care of their children while intoxicated...and though they were the subject of some gossip, there were was no such law as "Endangering the Welfare of a Child". Now even the risk of harm is a crime.
At one time it was viewed that "it was no one elses business how someone raised their kids", and minors were seen as having less rights that adults. But then science stepped in and said the these things harmed children both physically and emotionally...and laws were enacted based on those findings. Now children have many "rights"...where they didn't before.
It's not going to be a matter of what anyone "thinks about it"...it will be the science being brought forth to compel laws. Just like all the recent "child protection" laws, and the laws to protect bystanders from the dangers of "second-hand smoke".
Thank you, my friend but I think Annie53 details just SOME of the many issues raised by your perspective on societal enforcement of membership rights for the unborn. It is not and can not be a societal issue. It truly is between the would-be child's mother and God, Gldn. We can be horrified and repulsed by many of the things others choose to do in this world . . . but we must limit the ones that we criminalize for very good reasons. Read Annie53's post again and see if you can catch the flavor for the myriad issues that would be raised by legalizing your views. Peace and God bless, my friend.
Here's the thing about Annie's post, though. These "myriad issues" are already raised by the things that have been criminalized concerning the care of children after birth. If we're looking to make matters less complicated, why not be consistent and decriminalize those things? (Personally, I do feel we're going overboard in our society on the issue of what constitutes neglect but that's beside the point.)
(to RuralMissionary) So, when your statement was challenged, you changed your story. Now, where are the links to the obits? Where is the funeral director's price list? How much does a casket cost for a miscarriage? Does the embalmer need special training to learn his craft when dealing with little blobs of tissue? After all, you brought this topic up.
Actually, you brought it up when you said "If humanity is endowed at conception, we would issue death certificates and hold funerals for miscarriages." Since we do know that at least some people hold funerals for miscarriages, you yourself have essentially agreed that life is endowed at conception. Quite an extreme opinion, in my view, but you're welcome to it.
That's not to mention how silly it is to insist that the number of people willing to recognize a life in some official way is what makes the difference between it being a life and a non-life.
And how hard is it to Google "miscarriage funeral"?
Actually, you brought it up when you said "If humanity is endowed at conception, we would issue death certificates and hold funerals for miscarriages." Since we do know that at least some people hold funerals for miscarriages, you yourself have essentially agreed that life is endowed at conception. Quite an extreme opinion, in my view, but you're welcome to it.
That's not to mention how silly it is to insist that the number of people willing to recognize a life in some official way is what makes the difference between it being a life and a non-life.
And how hard is it to Google "miscarriage funeral"?
I read some of those links and people that are having services pretty much fall in line with the guidelines on abortions.
Even those people are not holding services for a "blob on the toilet paper".....which is 6 to 10 weeks when the majority of abortions are performed.
I read some of those links and people that are having services pretty much fall in line with the guidelines on abortions.
Even those people are not holding services for a "blob on the toilet paper".....which is 6 to 10 weeks when the majority of abortions are performed.
Not saying my last post has anything to do with my stance on abortion, just pointing out that if the official recognition of something as dead is what draws the line between a life and a non-life for us, we need to rethink our position.
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