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Old 07-29-2007, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,916 posts, read 17,439,776 times
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I wasn't quite sure how to phrase the question but I'm asking if God did not exist and religion was based on mythology and was in fact completely the invention of the human imagination then it would have to have certain characteristics. The reason I'm even asking the question is because my own atheism is largely built upon my own reflections on this question.
If God does not exist that would mean that he can't seen or detected by any means known to man. All of the associated entities of the religion such as satan, angels, souls, demons, etc. would also have to be undetectable or unmeasureable. Also, any manifestations of supernatural power such as miracles would not have any documentation or actual physical evidence. In short, if there was no God, there would have to be absolutely nothing that could be presented that would substantiate his existence and by this I'm talking about something of such substance and authority that it could be presented in a court of law. It's my belief that there is no evidence whatsoever and this has been the basis for my atheism. Any thoughts?
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Old 07-29-2007, 11:59 AM
 
7,870 posts, read 11,181,787 times
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Default Clarification, please...

Montana, sweetheart, could you try this one again? Even I'm not certain exactly what it is you are asking with this one. Could you paraphrase it, or re-word?

--Perhaps it's just that June's brain is Zzzzzzzzz, but I am not sure whether you are asking whether our belief systems surrounding god would be purely a projection of our own selves/psyches/human nature, or whether you are asking something else altogether....(The court of law part is basically what's throwing me.)

But maybe it's just me and my worn our mind...

Yours,
June
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Old 07-29-2007, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Texas
8,669 posts, read 20,967,215 times
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Default Is God imaginary?

I'm not sure I understand your question, MG, but I think I do.

If I were "making God up" I personally would not have included any traits or characteristics of anger or judgment on His part. The Bible clearly does. Even in the New Testament. Check out Ananias and Saphira in the book of Acts. I would have only included the characteristics which I would be personally comfortable with. But that's just me.

This is a question I have wanted to pose to you atheists- how do you account for the fact that Christians have presented evidence of certain miraculous events? I personally have chatted with you about 2 or 3 incidences of supernatural healing in my own life. Is kaykay just crazy or ignorant and just thinks these things occurred because she wants to believe it?

No, I don't have x-rays I can produce for you. But sometimes there is. Let me share again a story I shared on a thread a long time ago. This couple that we attend church with has a daughter who was diagnosed with lymphoma several years ago while she was in college. She had several tumors from this, 2 of which I understand were quite large. She was referred by her own physician to MD Anderson medical center in Houston. For those unfamiliar with it, it is renown for its treatment of cancer. Anyway, she went and they took x-rays, confirmed her original diagnosis etc. Her parents arrived and were praying and believing the Lord for a physical healing. The next morning, the doctors again took further x-rays, called them all in and said most of the tumors had disappeared except two small ones which seemed on their way out. The doctors said there was absolutely no explanation for this. Just take her home and makes sure the small ones did indeed go away and they did. This was all confirmed on x-rays by supposedly some of the best specialists in the world. So, what happened if not God. Is this just an anamoly of nature? It would have happened anyway without the prayer?

Well, you can believe what you like, but Montana, you can say there is NEVER any evidence to see. There was evidence here. You can believe it or not. This is certainly not an isolated story. I 'm sure there are many, many that do actually have some medical documentation. This is just one that I am personally familiar with.

Last edited by kaykay; 07-29-2007 at 12:30 PM..
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Old 07-29-2007, 12:10 PM
 
Location: South Florida
564 posts, read 1,780,548 times
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I don't know how to answer your question exactly. But there are many things that happen in this world that we can't explain, but they exist.

No one can yet prove WHY gravity occurs. We can measure its effect and estimate what it will do, but why does it happen? No one knows.

How do the cells of an unborn child know to multiply and how do they know what kind of cell they are to be and where in the body? It's all DNA, yeah, but we still cannot explain it.

Because we cannot explain the "why", we are left to simply measure the results and cannot say what the actual truth is and what WILL happen, only what we THINK will happen.

Not knowing for sure lends those things to speculation. How do you know the cells will or will not mutate? You don't. No one does. How do you know the sun will rise tomorrow? You don't. No one does.

I know I'm going a bit on a tangent here, but my point is this. Some of us believe in God based on the results we experience in our lives, others do not. Either way it cannot be proved, just like many things in the world.
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Old 07-29-2007, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Between Here and There
3,684 posts, read 11,257,562 times
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Well since I already know who I think God is this question is hard to answer. But I'm pretty sure He would be the same as I think He is now....all love. I think the other aspects such as judgemental and vengeful were put in the bible by man to keep followers in line.
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Old 07-29-2007, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Texas
8,669 posts, read 20,967,215 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
Montana, sweetheart, could you try this one again? Even I'm not certain exactly what it is you are asking with this one. Could you paraphrase it, or re-word?

--Perhaps it's just that June's brain is Zzzzzzzzz, but I am not sure whether you are asking whether our belief systems surrounding god would be purely a projection of our own selves/psyches/human nature, or whether you are asking something else altogether....(The court of law part is basically what's throwing me.)

But maybe it's just me and my worn our mind...

Yours,
June
LOL! Yes, june, I also felt his post was vague. I interpreted it to mean he thinks we Christians have invented God and that we have also invented in such a way that there is no evidence to the contrary. That how I interpreted him this morning anyway!
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Old 07-29-2007, 12:24 PM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,916 posts, read 17,439,776 times
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I thought I stated it quite well! What I'm saying is that when something is real it has certain characteristics that can be understood and analyzed. On the other hand, when something is not real, it also has certain characteristics that are distinctly different from that which is real. Use any imaginary thing you can think of like the Tooth Fairy. Ok, we all agree (except for a few small children) that the Tooth Fairy is not real but we can still describe certain characteristics of the Tooth Fairy. It can't be detected by any means known to man, it's invisible and so on. If God was real and say for the sake of discussion that he was clearly visible to everyone, then that would be a characteristic of something that is real. Well, no one has ever seen God and those who claim to have seen him had forgotten to bring a camera so we're left with God being invisible which happens to be one of the characteristics for something that is not real. Does that make any more sense?
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Old 07-29-2007, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Texas
8,669 posts, read 20,967,215 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
I thought I stated it quite well! What I'm saying is that when something is real it has certain characteristics that can be understood and analyzed. On the other hand, when something is not real, it also has certain characteristics that are distinctly different from that which is real. Use any imaginary thing you can think of like the Tooth Fairy. Ok, we all agree (except for a few small children) that the Tooth Fairy is not real but we can still describe certain characteristics of the Tooth Fairy. It can't be detected by any means known to man, it's invisible and so on. If God was real and say for the sake of discussion that he was clearly visible to everyone, then that would be a characteristic of something that is real. Well, no one has ever seen God and those who claim to have seen him had forgotten to bring a camera so we're left with God being invisible which happens to be one of the characteristics for something that is not real. Does that make any more sense?
That's pretty much what I interpreted you to be saying. That's why I posted my "documented evidence" for a miracle story above.
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Old 07-29-2007, 12:31 PM
 
Location: South Florida
564 posts, read 1,780,548 times
Reputation: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
I thought I stated it quite well! What I'm saying is that when something is real it has certain characteristics that can be understood and analyzed. On the other hand, when something is not real, it also has certain characteristics that are distinctly different from that which is real. Use any imaginary thing you can think of like the Tooth Fairy. Ok, we all agree (except for a few small children) that the Tooth Fairy is not real but we can still describe certain characteristics of the Tooth Fairy. It can't be detected by any means known to man, it's invisible and so on. If God was real and say for the sake of discussion that he was clearly visible to everyone, then that would be a characteristic of something that is real. Well, no one has ever seen God and those who claim to have seen him had forgotten to bring a camera so we're left with God being invisible which happens to be one of the characteristics for something that is not real. Does that make any more sense?
I believe I understand this post better.

Air is also invisible, but we know its there. In fact, most gases are, yet they exist and can kill us. Sound waves are invisible, yet we have another way to perceive them. Pain is invisible, same thing. Love is invisible. Ok, you see where I'm going with that. Visibility means nothing.

I don't believe God is something we can perceptualize into an image, but if I had to... I would perceive God as a spheroid shape in which we reside, like we're bubbles inside, together, yet separate.
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Old 07-29-2007, 12:36 PM
 
Location: Florida/Tennessee
6,329 posts, read 5,480,111 times
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Default not everthing is made of molecules

Light is a good example... it's real but we can't see it.

When we go into a room and open the door... light enters... when we close the door, the light goes away. The light is real, measurable, it matters but can not be seen or touched and no molecules.

So God is light

When a child is born... something takes place in the heart good willed people... Love...it enters, it's measurable, can't be touched, and no molecules

so God is love

need more evidence?
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