Is losing your Virginty before marriage is really that bad or really less problematic than we make it out to be? (pray, God)

[smartalx]

Originally Posted by mythunderstood

Virginity is way over-rated! I know from experience. I remained a virgin until I was 25. I don't know why, but I thought that I should try to hold out for marriage. Stupid me! I don't know why I waited so long. I made it out to be a much bigger deal than it was. Anyway, I am still with the one and only guy that I had sex with at 25 (I'm now 42). We are not married (my choice....don't feel it is necessary), have never broken up, never cheated, etc. No kids. Man, that birth control sure does a good job if you use it right. If you actually read the instructions you will learn that you should always check for drug interactions (i.e. antibiotics), and use backup in certain instances. Works like a charm. Most "birth control babies" are the result of improper use (drug interactions, forgetting to take a pill, throwing up before a pill has had a chance to absorb).

Somebody else using the "it didn't happen to me" fallacy.

Read my lips.

Contraception is not 100%.

2.5 million women each year can attest to that fact. 2.5 million women in the US alone! Probably 3 times that many in Canada and Europe. Maybe more!

Anyway, there is definitely nothing wrong with premarital sex.

Of COURSE there is! You aren't debating my posts. You are pretending they don't exist.

Who knows how long it might be before you ever get married (if you even want to). And why feel that you must rush into marriage, just so that you can have sex?

That's just stupid. You should never rush into marriage.

Not only that, but the more years that go by without having had the experience of intimacy that it provides, leaves you somewhat stunted emotionally/socially. That is why the older you get, people start to think something is wrong with you if you are a virgin.

*sigh*. You know it used to be that people thought you were strange if you weren't MARRIED as you get older. Now, largely BECAUSE of the sexual revolution, it's the other way around.

Doesn't make it okay. Wear your virginity with PRIDE! Like me!

[Bluefly]

Originally Posted by smartalx

I'm not. But even if I was, fear mongering in this sense isn't bad. Bad fear mongering is what the government did about terrorism to get the patriot act to pass. It's what Obama did to get the healthcare bill to pass. The government is great at that kind of fear mongering.

Don't confuse fear mongering with warning. Fear mongering has an agenda other than minimizing the damage caused by that which you are warning about. Generally it involves more power or money.

THIS is warning people that the contraceptive industry is not giving you all of the facts.And people are being deceived about the risks. They aren't given enough information. They are told "this is 99% effective" when it's not. They should be told "you have a 1 in 6 chance of getting pregnant if you use a condom.". Why aren't they being told this? Because the contraceptive industry is a for profit industry. They don't want abstinence.

And pray tell, what benefit outweighs 2.5 million women each year getting pregnant because their BC failed? What benefit outweighs 1.5 million abortions a year? What benefit outways millions and millions of kids being raised by single mothers? What benefit outweighs increased gang activity and drug use?When does a minority become anecdotal? 1 in 5? 1 in 10? 1 in 50? 1 in 100? I'd say uts closer to 1 in 1000. So 1 in 6 women who rely on the condom getting pregnant is HARDLY anecdotal.That is not true at alll. If we did that there would be no progress. Policies need to cover protection of society. That again. You keep sidestepping the evidence that says you have a higher chance if getting divorced if you have sex before marriage.

1. I challenge you to practice what you preach and to stop driving because of the risks associated with your lifestyle activity.

2. Who are these people you keep talking about that think birth control is 100% effective? Comprehensive sex education (not abstinence education) makes completely clear the risks. I don't know anybody who thinks it's 100% safe.


3. Ignoring broader statistics to highlight a few outlying individuals goes against the foundations of science, as I stated before. Here's the actual statistic you're looking for:

During a year of typical condom use, between 10 and 15 out of 100 sexually active women will become pregnant. During a year of perfect condom use, that number drops to between 2 and 3 out of 100 sexually active women becoming pregnant.

You keep saying the same thing over and over. Everybody knows there's a risk involved. It's low when done properly. Having a child isn't the worst outcome of sex. It can be quite wonderful, in fact. So, let's just let grown individuals make their own decisions.

Also - you try to separate divorce from conservative Christian culture, but knowing it firsthand I can assure you the pressure to marry young forces many people to wed the wrong person, thus increasing divorce rates later on. Direct correlation.

Anyway - please keep me posted on your commitment to stop driving.

[fishbrains]

Originally Posted by smartalx

The thing is you don't know if you'll be the one out of 15 couples who gets pregnant within the year. *It's completely random.

No, it is not. Use of contraceptives dramatically decreases the incidence of pregnancy.

Originally Posted by smartalx

So if you think you aren't part of the problem just because you haven't become pregnant, you are wrong.

I have had premarital sex with a number of women. None of them have become pregnant. In what way am I contributing to a so called 'problem'? I was safe, as were they.

Originally Posted by smartalx

*The more people who engage in premarital sex, the more pregnancies occur.

Way too simplistic. How many use contraception? What types of sexual contact? How old are they? Is Plan B readily available? Is contraception and family planning readily available? Sex ed? Because the truth is that if these things are available, then extramarital pregnancies go way down.

Not to mention people who want to have children, but do not want to be married.

Originally Posted by smartalx

In order for you to do that you need to examine the causes of divorce. *Do you really want to go there? *Are you SURE? *Because statistics support me, not you. *I can tell you divorce isn't caused by Christian attitudes, or even conservative attitudes. *It's caused by people marrying the wrong person. *Period.

The stats do seem to indicate that as a group religious people have divorce rates similar to, if not higher than, secular people. One might think that there is a correlation between christian/conservative attitudes and divorce. Just saying...

Originally Posted by smartalx

*And if your premarital relationship involves sex, you have an increased chance of marrying the wrong person.

You say this, but it is simply not true. You may wish it to be true, but there is zero, absolutely no evidence for this at all.

Originally Posted by smartalx

*And post marriage, the experiences you have can affect your sex lives in a negative way.It's actually not stupid and silly.

Again, not true. Simply pulling a statement out of your A.. does not make it so.

Originally Posted by smartalx

Once again, looking at the wrong thing as an example. *Don't study the communities. *Study the individuals. *THAT is the point of my links.

WRONG! You ALWAYS study the communities, never the individuals. Any given individual can be an outlier that has little or no relevance to the community. But if you look at the group as a whole, you can determine actual facts.

Silly example. I am an individual. I am also white and male. I am 6'5" tall. If you study the individual, you would come to the erroneous conclusion that white males are 6'5", which is clearly wrong. If you study the community, you will see that I am an outlier as far as height is concerned.

Same thing with sex, relationships, divorce, etc. If you look at christians, and you see that they marry younger than non-christians, and divorce more frequently, then it is logical to draw a conclusion that something about being Christian might cause this. Now, it could be many things, such as the church's patriarchal emphasis on male dominance/female subservience, it might be additional financial stress because of supporting the church community, it may be as a result of the lower education level of christians in general. Or it might be because of their sexual ideas. I really do not know what it is, and do not have the resources or interest to conduct any sort of proper study. My point is that studying any individual christian couple is foolish, because they may differ from the norm in many ways. But studying christians (or any other group) as a whole is actually worthwhile.

[Bluefly]

Wear your virginity with PRIDE! Like me!

There it is. You just haven't experienced yet the other side of the argument to understand why the benefits vastly outweigh the risks when done safely and respectfully. You believe the risks are random, but the science proves that those who use condoms consistently and correctly have about at 98% protection rate. The number rises due to inconsistent or improper use, which gets to personal responsibility, not randomness.

[Asheville Native]

Originally Posted by smartalx

You keep sidestepping the evidence that says you have a higher chance if getting divorced if you have sex before marriage.

This evidence: "While cohabitation increases a couple's rate for divorce, premarital sex doesn't have much of an effect. In fact, in areas where premarital sex is strongly discouraged, such as the "Bible Belt", divorce rates are much higher (perhaps because couples get married so they can have sex)."

Premarital Sex and Divorce Rates

Making up baseless statistics makes one look foolish

[415_s2k]

Originally Posted by smartalx

You've GOT to be kidding me. What a terrible logic system you have. "It didn't happen to me" is not a good enough reason because you know FULL WELL that it JUST as easily COULD have been you as any other because

CONTRACEPTIVES ARE NOT 100%!!!!

And yet, I still have no STD's nor children.

According to the pro-abstinence crowd, I should be sitting on a pile of kids and full of STD's. I'm not.

It's not 100% guaranteed I'm going to make it home alive after going out with my friends on a Friday night, or walking a mile to the store. Cars blow stop signs, jump curbs, etc. Still not deterred.

BTW. Let me ask you. *What form of contraception did you use?

Condoms, and most of the women I've been with are on birth control.

AND! Your argument in favor of your promiscuity doesn't address the danger it adds to your marriage. I say again. Sex before marriage increases the likelihood of divorce.

If anything, I appreciate much, much more a stable and devoted relationship than I used to, because I understand how fleeting infatuation can be. I don't care what you think about it... my life and my experience is the inverse of what you preach.

[fishbrains]

Originally Posted by smartalx

You've GOT to be kidding me. What a terrible logic system you have. "It didn't happen to me" is not a good enough reason because you know FULL WELL that it JUST as easily COULD have been you as any other because

CONTRACEPTIVES ARE NOT 100%!!!!

If pregnancy is your big fear, then why not double up on the contraception? Use birth control pills and a condom. Or IUD. Foam. Long term contraceptive shots.

The chances of pregnancy are going to go way, way, way down.

[415_s2k]

Originally Posted by fishbrains

If pregnancy is your big fear, then why not double up on the contraception? Use birth control pills and a condom. Or IUD. Foam. Long term contraceptive shots.

The chances of pregnancy are going to go way, way, way down.

Exactly!

If I wear a condom and she's on the pill or has an IUD, then if she gets pregnant, well, that kid deserves it... s/he will probably be like 6'10, solid muscle, able to jump ten feet from standing, run at 40mph and have an IQ in the 190's

[smartalx]

Originally Posted by Bluefly

1. I challenge you to practice what you preach and to stop driving because of the risks associated with your lifestyle activity.

Please. They aren't related in any way. I need to drive. You don't need to have sex.

2. Who are these people you keep talking about that think birth control is 100% effective?

EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!
Oh, you "know" that contraception isn't 100% effective. But you ACT as if it is. That 15% ineffectiveness doesn't affect your sexual lifestyle. So contraception is EFFECTIVELY 100% effective to you.

Comprehensive sex education (not abstinence education) makes completely clear the risks.

Absolutely not. No. Sex ed uses perfect use statistics to encourage contraception use. It doesn't use REAL WORLD numbers to discourage sex. And even when it uses real world figures, the language it uses to describe those numbers is misleading. They will say "this contraceptive is 90% effective instead of the more scary 1 out if 10 who use this contraceptive get pregnant. Sex ed doesn't emphasize enough about the importance of abstinence. It practically gives permission to have sex.

I don't know anybody who thinks it's 100% safe.

But you also don't know anyone who lets that fact keep them from having sex.

3. Ignoring broader statistics to highlight a few outlying individuals goes against the foundations of science, as I stated before.

Then why are you doing it? Saying "I didn't get pregnant" is doing just that.

Here's the actual statistic you're looking for:

OK. Let's use real world numbers. 43,000,000 women in the US engage in sexual activity. What's 3% of that?

1,290,000.

THAT is how many women would get pregnant if all of them relied on condoms alone. In the US.

You haven't disproven anything. You have confirmed my point.

You keep saying the same thing over and over.

You're blaming me??? You aren't listening. I HAVE to repeat myself.

Everybody knows there's a risk involved. It's low when done properly. Having a child isn't the worst outcome of sex. It can be quite wonderful, in fact. So, let's just let grown individuals make their own decisions.

How about informed decisions. Mkay? Why do you want to prevent me from keeping the grown ibdividuals from being well informed?

Also - you try to separate divorce from conservative Christian culture,

I'm not trying to separate them. They ARE separate. YOU are trying to add them. The OP isn't about Christian beliefs. And there ARE secular reasons to be abstinent.

but knowing it firsthand I can assure you the pressure to marry young forces many people to wed the wrong person, thus increasing divorce rates later on. Direct correlation.

Cheese. How many times do I have to repeat myself? The young people who get married pressure themselves. Their elders tell them not to rush into marriage.[quote]

[Febtober]

Originally Posted by smartalx

The pill raises the chances of getting pregnant to 1 in 12. The condom is 1 in 6!!!!

Hahaha, you didn't seriously just posit that while using a condom, a couple has a 1 in 6 chance of getting pregnant?

In one year, only two of every 100 couples who use condoms consistently and correctly will experience an unintended pregnancy—two pregnancies arising from an estimated 8,300 acts of sexual intercourse, for a 0.02 percent per-condom pregnancy rate.

(Hatcher RA et al. Contraceptive Technology, 18th rev. ed. New York: Ardent Media, 2004.)

Also, what's the big deal about marriage? It's simply a legally binding piece of paper. A couple that doesn't have this piece of paper and has a child is a drain on society, and yet, all other things being equal, a couple that has this sheet of paper is magically now a benefit to society?