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No man will be in hell for his sin. He will be in Hell because they rejected the creators provision for their sin.
Our creator is a righteous judge. Prior to our creation, there was a conflict in the heavens. The highest cherub/angel was Lucifer, and he fell due to saying in his heart he will be like the most high.
Our creation was after this conflict. Lucifer now called Satan was the source of the downfall of man.
Our creator waged war on the serpent.
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Genesis 3:15
None of this was a knee-jerk reaction. The creator is omniscient. There is a larger plan we could never comprehend. Everything is done for good and for the glory of our creator. The "Day of Yahushua" will be the climax of his glory, power, and justice - at least to what we will understand in our existence. Amazingly, this day does not look far away. The battle of Armageddon will be even greater after the millennium.
Yahuwa presented himself to us as a man Yahushua the messiah. Yahushua is the creator himself as a man. "shua" means saved. He laid his life down for us. There is no greater love. All we have to do is accept it. His resurrection is our hope that was promised to us by him. Truth defines our glorious creator. This is a blessing because the Islamic allah is contentious and couldn't be trusted. Not to mention he is the pagan idol Ba'al.
We just as the Lucifer have the most precious gift, free choice. It's how we use that choice. We are being tested. He wants us to seek him and love him. You love him by listening to his wisdom and living by his words.
Hope that helps.
Last edited by Mikelee81; 05-10-2011 at 10:47 AM..
But in the book of Genesis, God cursed all mankind, just because of one man's sin. That would be like giving the death penalty to all of the world just because you stole a piece of candy.
If God made man a sinner, then that means that man's destiny is to sin. He cannot not sin.
God didn't give man a choice. He gave Adam a choice, and all mankind paid the consequences as a result.
Again: no man/woman can notsin. We have no "choice."
Blessings,
brian
You are right, weare all destined to be sinners. If you are a Christian though, thankfully God has given you an "out" so to speak. Personally, I am not a Christian and I beleive that God, { if there is one } knows your heart and if you are a good person or not. And in the after-life { again, if there is one } will determine your fate accordingly
No man will be in hell for his sin. He will be in Hell because they rejected the creators provision for their sin.
Utter poppycock! This is a ludicrous idea. No one would ever reject the chance to avoid such evil . . . they just cannot accept the idea of a God who would EVER create such a fate for ANYONE! . . . (Not to mention the irrational and unbelievable fables that they would be required to accept as fact . . . like the ones in your post here).
Utter poppycock! This is a ludicrous idea. No one would ever reject the chance to avoid such evil . . . they just cannot accept the idea of a God who would EVER create such a fate for ANYONE! . . . (Not to mention the irrational and unbelievable fables that they would be required to accept as fact . . . like the ones in your post here).
This is the story of the Bible. If it's ludicrous in your eyes, than that is your choice. I wouldn't recommend it. There's still time left to ask YaHusHua the messiah into your heart mystic. Wash your sins away with the blood of the lamb. It is our only reconciliation with the holy Elohim.
This is the story of the Bible. If it's ludicrous in your eyes, than that is your choice. I wouldn't recommend it. There's still time left to ask YaHusHua the messiah into your heart mystic. Wash your sins away with the blood of the lamb. It is our only reconciliation with the holy Elohim.
That is the story and understanding of our ignoirant ancient ancestors who were illiterate primitive barbarians. We are talking about savages some of whom were fornicating (and assorted things) to honor Ba'al . . . others were sacrificing animals and their live babies to Moloch and other "gods" to appease them. Yet it is their beliefs about God that you favor over the unambiguous example and teachings of Christ!!! Incredible!!
That is the story and understanding of our ignoirant ancient ancestors who were illiterate primitive barbarians. We are talking about savages some of whom were fornicating (and assorted things) to honor Ba'al . . . others were sacrificing animals and their live babies to Moloch and other "gods" to appease them. Yet it is their beliefs about God that you favor over the unambiguous example and teachings of Christ!!! Incredible!!
Yahushua the messiah quoted directly from the old testament and alluded to it on a number of occasions. If it was corrupt he was the most qualified to say so. He didn't deny anything and referred to it often saying "it is written." He quoted mostly from Deuteronomy and Isaiah.
Not only did he refer to the Old Testement, so did the apostles. There are hundreds of references to the Old Testament. If you want to knock your socks off, check out the links provided.
Matthew 4
2And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Not only did he refer to the Old Testement, so did the apostles. There are hundreds of references to the Old Testament. If you want to knock your socks off, check out the links provided.
Here's a key messianic prophecy Yahushua quotes from in the Old Testament initiates his ministry.
Luke 4:18-19
18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
He was reading Isaiah 61
Isaiah 61
1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
Interesting he didn't say the bolded part. The comma's lasted 2000 years.
The events in the Bible are a matter of History with documented and archeological evidence.
Last edited by Mikelee81; 05-10-2011 at 07:53 PM..
Sometimes I raise this question up. Only seldom it is answered.
"If a man goes to Hell, has he failed or has God failed."
'God' fails (pun intended).
An omnipotent, omniscient deity would have already known what the result(s) of his 'creation' would be and the exercise would be futile. To continue the exercise and create flawed creatures on whom he would inflict needless pain and suffering (already knowing they would fail) would be malevolent, exponentially worse than the child pulling the wings off flies. To expect different results would be insanity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt
I wrote this on the subject a long time ago:
God supposedly is entirely responsible for creating us; he gave us ever attribute we were born with. Now, some say that he did not give us our fallen natures, that we inherited that as a result of the Fall of Adam and Eve. But, he set up the Fall, and he created Adam and Eve with the capacity to be beguiled, surely god knew when he gave them the capacity to be beguiled that Satan would beguile them and they would eat. It is bad thinking to think they had a choice. They ate the fruit because they were tricked; they were tricked because god did not sufficiently equip them so that they would not be tricked by Satan. It is god's fault that they were tricked, since he could have prepared them but did not... Moderator cut: edit
Precisely. The alleged inducement to eat the fruit was that they would "...become as gods, knowing good and evil"
For the inducement to be of value, they would have to NOT already know 'good' and 'evil' ('right' and 'wrong'), and not knowing, they could hardly be faulted for doing the 'wrong' thing.
The author of the story was obviously incompetent to grasp the illogicality of this proposition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150
I find it amusing that atheists are speculating about the behavior of an entity they believe does not exist.
We could just as well discuss the actions of Frodo the Hobbit in the Tolkien novel. The fictitious nature of the character does not preclude discussion of it.
Not only did he refer to the Old Testement, so did the apostles. There are hundreds of references to the Old Testament. If you want to knock your socks off, check out the links provided.
No one is rejecting the OT because it tells us of Christ and how to validate Him. But Jesus corrected the supposedly infallible words of God in the OT with "You have been told . . . But I SAY . . ." The OT MUST be read with the "mind of Christ" to remove the veil of ignorance over it and use what God has "written in our hearts" under the guidance of the Holy Spirit within.
1 Corinthians 2:16 (King James Version)
16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
If the OT prophets knew the mind of God why would we need the "mind of Christ" to understand God?
Quote:
Here's a key messianic prophecy Yahushua quotes from in the Old Testament initiates his ministry.
Luke 4:18-19
18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
He was reading Isaiah 61
Isaiah 61
1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; Interesting he didn't say the bolded part.
Of course He didn't say the bold part because it is an incorrect belief in the nature of God. It is part of the ancient ignorance that is the veil of ignorance over the OT and does not relate to the prophesy of the Christ . . . which is the primary purpose of the OT. The OT prophets did NOT understand the true nature of our God, period.
This is the part you left out that validates Christ'
Luke 4:19-21 (King James Version)
19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
Fulfilled = finished, over, ended.
2 Corinthians 3:14-17
But their minds were blinded: (blind mind = ignorance) for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16Nevertheless when it (the heart) shall turn to the Lord,(Christ
) the vail shall be taken away.
17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
1 John 2:27 (King James Version)
27But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.
2 Corinthians 3: 2-6 (King James Version)
2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
No one is rejecting the OT because it tells us of Christ and how to validate Him.
You are something else. This is where we started.
Me No man will be in hell for his sin. He will be in Hell because they rejected the creators provision for their sin.
You
"Utter poppycock! This is a ludicrous idea. No one would ever reject the chance to avoid such evil . . . they just cannot accept the idea of a God who would EVER create such a fate for ANYONE! . . . (Not to mention the irrational and unbelievable fables that they would be required to accept as fact . . . like the ones in your post here)."
Here you've denied the origin of man and entire purpose for the messiah which, according to the Old and New Testament, was to be the great prophet and sinless sacrifice for redemption our sins to the father.
then we go on me This is the story of the Bible. If it's ludicrous in your eyes, than that is your choice. I wouldn't recommend it. There's still time left to ask YaHusHua the messiah into your heart mystic. Wash your sins away with the blood of the lamb. It is our only reconciliation with the holy Elohim.
I am amazed a proclaimed "Christian" does not understand the atonement that the messiah accomplished.
You
That is the story and understanding of our ignoirant ancient ancestors who were illiterate primitive barbarians. We are talking about savages some of whom were fornicating (and assorted things) to honor Ba'al . . . others were sacrificing animals and their live babies to Moloch and other "gods" to appease them. Yet it is their beliefs about God that you favor over the unambiguous example and teachings of Christ!!! Incredible!!
You have just denied the Old Testament and origin of our species as valid. Do you think the Son of Adam/ Son of God the messiah would have cleared this up if the fall of man was inaccurate? If this isn't heresy, I don't know what is.
I then went on to provide a number of leads and sources to Yahushua and the apostles quoting and referencing the Old Testament.
I'm talking about the validity of the Old Testament.
You then turn this whole thing around to how they were ignorant ancestors and the obvious that we are in the new covenant.
You're going off on a tangent. Maybe get some rest.
Me No man will be in hell for his sin. He will be in Hell because they rejected the creators provision for their sin.
You "Utter poppycock! This is a ludicrous idea. No one would ever reject the chance to avoid such evil . . . they just cannot accept the idea of a God who would EVER create such a fate for ANYONE! . . . (Not to mention the irrational and unbelievable fables that they would be required to accept as fact . . . like the ones in your post here)."
Here you've denied the origin of man and entire purpose for the messiah which, according to the Old and New Testament, was to be the great prophet and sinless sacrifice for redemption our sins to the father.
then we go on me This is the story of the Bible. If it's ludicrous in your eyes, than that is your choice. I wouldn't recommend it. There's still time left to ask YaHusHua the messiah into your heart mystic. Wash your sins away with the blood of the lamb. It is our only reconciliation with the holy Elohim. I am amazed a proclaimed "Christian" does not understand the atonement that the messiah accomplished.
No . . . I've denied the absurd and ignorant interpretations currently used. You seem unable to extricate yourself from the ignorant interpretations and interpret the events using the "mind of Christ" which mandates a loving non-vengeful, non-smiting God.You have yet to explain WHY a loving God would REQUIRE such a gruesome death and blood sacrifice to forgive His children?
I prefer to see the promise and validation of Christ in the OT and the redemption of that promise in the NT producing the New Covenant. You want to retain the ancient ignorant beliefs about God and sacrifices from the OT and reject the unambiguous example and teaching we were given by the "mind of Christ."
Quote:
You
That is the story and understanding of our ignorant ancient ancestors who were illiterate primitive barbarians.
Quote:
We are talking about savages some of whom were fornicating (and assorted things) to honor Ba'al . . . others were sacrificing animals and their live babies to Moloch and other "gods" to appease them. Yet it is their beliefs about God that you favor over the unambiguous example and teachings of Christ!!! Incredible!!
You have just denied the Old Testament and origin of our species as valid. Do you think the Son of Adam/ Son of God the messiah would have cleared this up if the fall of man was inaccurate? If this isn't heresy, I don't know what is.
Again you confuse your preferred interpretation of the OT under the veil of ignorance of our ancestors with the valid interpretation using the "mind of Christ." What you call the fall of man was our first lesson in righteousness (the Bible is full of such lessons which is why it is USEFUL for instruction). We were spiritual infants in Eden not responsible for knowing Good and Evil. We had to learn that distinction. Once we knew the difference . . . we were then capable of choosing evil over good . . . which we have done in abundance in our species spiritual immaturity through the centuries. But Moses our schoolmaster started us on the path to properly choosing with the training wheels of fear of God and punishment. When Jesus fulfilled the OT prophesies and we could validate Him through the ages in it . . . He removed the fear of God (only the beginning of wisdom) by showing us the love of God by His unambiguous example and teaching. We were then capable of choosing Good over Evil through "love of God and each other" as Jesus commanded.
Quote:
I'm talking about the validity of the Old Testament.
You then turn this whole thing around to how they were ignorant ancestors and the obvious that we are in the new covenant.
You're going off on a tangent. Maybe get some rest.
You are confused because you FAIL to properly divide the scriptures into their separate roles. The OT tells us of the promise of Christ and provides what is necessary to validate Him when He arrives. Jesus fulfilled those prophesies (and continues to do so). Scripture also contains many lessons in righteousness so it is USEFUL ((profitable) for instruction and to give us hope. But it is under the veil of ignorance about the true nature of our God . . . which is why we need the "mind of Christ" to understand God and read the scriptures using that understanding given in the NT . . . not the ancient ignorance under the veil.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 05-10-2011 at 11:34 PM..
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