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06-06-2011, 02:05 AM
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2,123 posts, read 4,430,066 times
Reputation: 989
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Simple question.
If the story is true (eating the forbidden fruit), the punishment doesn't fit the crime. How can your god justify it?
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06-06-2011, 02:26 AM
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1,492 posts, read 2,412,257 times
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God sentenced us to death as a favor to us..it's in what we CAN'T see right now.otherwise,in this fallen state,we would have to live in imperfection forever..that means diseases,birth defects,etc..that's no way to live forever.that's why he prevented reentry back into the garden of eden.
if you don't quite understand what I mean,I think whatever interaction satan had with eve messed up the human genome.I think adam and eve had the perfect genome..they would have lived forever,without fear of disease,or giving birth to kids with birth defects...etc.all the things that result from an imperfect genome.
if you don't think there was a perfect genome,then let me say this...in order to have a faultly copy (us,where we are now) then there had to have been an original default plan to begin with.and God doesn't create imperfectly...He creates perfect.something,or rather someone...messed it up.
it's the same with a computer program..there needs to be an original one that is correct,before there can be a knock-off with defects in it.if you had a program like that...would it be a good idea to keep using it forever,when,given time,you could fix it? yes,you may have to destroy the programs with faults in them,but God has a plan to deal with that in us humans. 
...this is not about the act of stealing.
Last edited by SC122; 06-06-2011 at 02:44 AM..
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06-06-2011, 02:32 AM
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2,123 posts, read 4,430,066 times
Reputation: 989
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC122
God sentenced us to death as a favor to us..it's in what we CAN'T see right now.otherwise,in this fallen state,we would have to live in imperfection forever..that means diseases,birth defects,etc..that's no way to live forever.that's why he prevented reentry back into the garden of eden.
if you don't quite understand what I mean,I think whatever interaction satan had with eve messed up the human genome.I think adam and eve had the perfect genome..they would have lived forever,without fear of disease,or giving birth to kids with defects...etc.all the things that result from an imperfect genome.
if you don't think there was a perfect genome,then let me say this...in order to have a default copy (us,where we are now) then there had to have been an original plan to begin with.and God doesn't create imperfectly...He creates perfect.something,or rather someone...messed it up.
it's the same with a computer program..there needs to be an orinigal one that is correct,before there can be a knock-off with defects in it.if you had a program like that...would it be a good idea to keep using it forever,when,given time,you could fix it?
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God could have nipped it in the bud - dealt with Adam and Eve directly and corrected the problem then and there. Instead, countless billions of people are suffering because of the actions of two people. Punished for something they had no part in.
Is this fair?
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06-06-2011, 02:37 AM
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1,492 posts, read 2,412,257 times
Reputation: 254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrcousert
God could have nipped it in the bud - dealt with Adam and Eve directly and corrected the problem then and there. Instead, countless billions of people are suffering because of the actions of two people. Punished for something they had no part in.
Is this fair?
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how do YOU know this would be the right recourse for us? God says He does not think as we do:
For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the mountains, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts higher than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9) |
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06-06-2011, 02:58 AM
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35,318 posts, read 45,309,319 times
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For anything that puzzles people the old adage of the Lord working in mysterious ways seems to be a convenient retort.
That said it does seem kinda rude to subject every one who was ever born to the potential of so much pain and suffering for some abstract notion that maybe you'll have a good time ,to create a world where materialism,greed and lust abound but we are to avoid temptation and be as pure and sin free as our creator, dude it might have looked good on paper but the amount of suffering many have had to endure kinda makes you come off as some kind of sadist,,Why didnt you leave well enough alone and leave us all in the realms of non existence..
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06-06-2011, 03:05 AM
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1,492 posts, read 2,412,257 times
Reputation: 254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101
For anything that puzzles people the old adage of the Lord working in mysterious ways seems to be a convenient retort.
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I'm not quite the one who said it,God did.
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That said it does seem kinda rude to subject every one who was ever born to the potential of so much pain and suffering for some abstract notion that maybe you'll have a good time ,to create a world where materialism,greed and lust abound but we are to avoid temptation and be as pure and sin free as our creator, dude it might have looked good on paper but the amount of suffering many have had to endure kinda makes you come off as some kind of sadist,,Why didnt you leave well enough alone and leave us all in the realms of non existence..
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because God says the sufferings of this word are nothing compared to the glory of the next one. so if we have to suffer for a short time in order to have glory forever,then so be it.If God says it's worth it,then it must be.
it makes sense to me that Jesus would say we need to have faith like a small child..iow-trust me,I have a plan.
I see that what you're asking is the same as why we have to endure hardship,aka-evil,and that is ongoing on here in various threads.
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06-06-2011, 12:55 PM
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Location: Valencia, Spain
16,167 posts, read 11,278,768 times
Reputation: 2855
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC122
...He creates perfect.something,or rather someone...messed it up.
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Which he knew was going to happen..right?
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it's the same with a computer program..there needs to be an original one that is correct,before there can be a knock-off with defects in it.if you had a program like that...would it be a good idea to keep using it forever,when,given time,you could fix it? yes,you may have to destroy the programs with faults in them,but God has a plan to deal with that in us humans.
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Poor analogy. A better one would be....
Designing the original computer and then producing it when you knew it had a defect that was going to render the computer useless...so useless that you would have to destroy all the computers to get rid of the defect THEN.... leaving eight computers on the market that you knew would cause the re-emergence of the same defect that you destroyed all the other computers to get rid off. 
Last edited by Rafius; 06-06-2011 at 01:32 PM..
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06-06-2011, 01:22 PM
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755 posts, read 750,266 times
Reputation: 1175
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[LEFT][LEFT][LEFT][LEFT][SIZE=3][/SIZE][/LEFT][/LEFT]
[/LEFT]
[LEFT][SIZE=3]
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrcousert
Simple question. [/SIZE]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrcousert
[/LEFT]
[LEFT][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/LEFT]
[LEFT][SIZE=3]If the story is true (eating the forbidden fruit), the punishment doesn't fit the crime. How can your god justify it?
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[/SIZE][/LEFT]
[LEFT][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/LEFT]
[LEFT][SIZE=3]I can see why you would think that wrcousert and many people do. But it was a little more complicated that. Satan the Devil caused Adam and Eve to disobey God. (Genesis 2:17; 3:6) God told them earlier that if they disobeyed the one commandment he had given them, then they would die; and they did eventually die as God had said they would if they disobeyed. (Genesis 3:17-19) Now when he instigated this, Satan did not question God’s power - he questioned his right to rule his creations. By disobeying God, Adam and Eve now showed that they obeyed Satan. But Satan had lied to them- they did not become like God at all with the ability to rule themselves.[/SIZE][/LEFT]
[LEFT][SIZE=3] God very well could have destroyed the three of them that very day, but he didn’t… why? That would not have answered the challenge that Satan raised by his actions- that God had the right to rule his creations and mankind could not do it without God. Only time would show that God was right- and wouldn’t you agree that time has shown exactly that? Man has dominated man to his injury… for sure.. [/SIZE][/LEFT]
[LEFT][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/LEFT]
[LEFT][SIZE=3]But that isn’t the end it of it. In the meantime God made provisions for the innocent descendants of Adam and Eve, who just as you say suffer as a result of man trying to rule himself and being further influenced by Satan. That is where the sacrifice of God’s Son comes in…[/SIZE][/LEFT]
[LEFT][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/LEFT]
[LEFT][SIZE=3]Have to go to work now, so will check back tomorrow to see what you think. Hope you have a great day![/SIZE][/LEFT]
[LEFT][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/LEFT][/LEFT]
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06-06-2011, 01:35 PM
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Location: Valencia, Spain
16,167 posts, read 11,278,768 times
Reputation: 2855
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mamasplace
Satan the Devil caused Adam and Eve to disobey God.
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...and your god knew all along, before he even started, that this was going to happen ...right? |
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06-06-2011, 03:32 PM
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1,493 posts, read 1,153,248 times
Reputation: 383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius
...and your god knew all along, before he even started, that this was going to happen ...right?
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Quite possibly yes. There's a long going debate about predestination vs freewill in Christianity. Both have their own supporting verses and its difficult for both to be true at the same time.
One way of reconciling these two is to hypothesize that God knew all the possible worlds he could have created in which the most people would come to freely choose him. He then created that world and sets it up in a why where the greatest number of people are saved by their own choice, but perhaps some manipulation on God's part. This supposes that God knows the out come of every possible decision and its consequence and did so from the beginning of time and reconciles peoples freedom with his all knowing nature. This position is called molism or divine middle knowledge and is one of many possibilities.
Suffering is the result of the freewill side of coin and humankinds inevitable misuse of it. As William Lane Craig has said, in reconciling Freewill, it may not be feasable to create a world without suffering and where everyone would freely choose him in their lifetime As Al Pacino's Satan (from The Devils Advocate) once said: Moderator cut: inappropriate language
If you add to this idea that creation is God's plan to destroy evil (perhaps that alreadly existed) and have fellowship with created beings that freely chose him, Creation doesn't look quite so ridiculous from a moral standpoint. Of course the above explanation doesn't necessarily reconcile why God may have made the punishment an eternal torture chamber, but not everyone agrees here about the length or even the nature of hell.
As you can probably tell, that is very hotly debated on this forum 
Last edited by june 7th; 06-06-2011 at 04:38 PM..
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