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Old 11-06-2011, 08:52 PM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,552,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
I am with you on this. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard, "well, I don't know why if YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN gOD WHY YOU'RE ON HERE DISCUSSING THINGS ABOUT HIM!?!? *snicker* ("This only proves he MUST secretly believe in him"). It is just lost of many believers that there are some of us who really enjoy the bible's contribution because it helps to gives us a clue into theological evolution which helped, in great part, to shape western civilization or at least, become a part of it. I personally think the bible gets completely destroyed by many modern Christians who force it say what it does NOT say and interpret meanings that are NOT there. It gets placed on a pedestal where it should not be and their god is forced to write checks his A$$ can't cash. So then they have to come to his rescue and help him improve an image they unwittingly created for him.

To me, the bible is a VERY important piece of literature that gives some very interesting clues and insights into ancient history. No, for me, it is NOT the "word of god" or the "divine source of eternal truth" but it does give a lover of history like me a peek into a world that shaped the one I currently live in.
Amen, brother!
It's been suffering from that interpretational damage since the first book was written - heck, it happens in the bible as you read it! Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. And that's not even to mention that the books themselves are reacting against Israelite religion, folklore and tribal traditions. It's usually no coincedence that the advent of writing usually corresponds with royal institutions - when political ideologies are most needed to be promulgated. It's as if a modern political party created writing in order to write their particular history of America and to show how important their party was in establishing it, and why it's still needed ha ha! Then a later party seizes power, with the help of their own literature, writes their own history, etc, etc.
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Old 11-06-2011, 11:10 PM
 
Location: Ohio
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I never understood how anyone could debate the bibile when there are hundreds of books left out. Christians, your not even playing with the full deck.
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Old 11-07-2011, 07:34 AM
 
Location: Somewhere extremely awesome
3,117 posts, read 2,700,649 times
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I'm a Christian. The Bible is the true Word of God.

But it is silly to use standalone verses to prove anything, and it's downright wrong to have a belief, and then find Bible passages to support it, rather than letting the Spirit move you from reading the Bible passages first.
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Old 11-07-2011, 07:46 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
49,187 posts, read 14,833,337 times
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With those who feel that the only way to understand the Bible is through some sort of divine inspiration, discussion is often a waste of time. Mere facts are brushed aside, irrelevancies, turning the question around, proving the Bible with other bits, replacing 'context' with faith and of course accusing the critic of bias, are all par for the course.

Appeal to the millions of believers, the influence on our society or the worthwhile ideas that can be found in its pages - all that is utterly irrelevant to how much can be considered reliable.

We get the neat little evasions of symbolism or metaphor, which of course carries its own sidelining of Bible reliability.

I've had all this in discussions of the Bible since the sheer influence it has had (still has) requires that it's veracity be validated.

Out of context is just a small factor. But its important. For example, Jesus prophecies look pretty convincing until you read the whole thing in context and then you see that it doesn't relate to Jesus. Ok then, out of context becomes necessary. The passage didn't refer to Jesus, but the prophecy of Jesus was 'hidden' there, to be found when reading it with the Gospel story in mind. Some may know that I argue tht these 'hidden' prophecies were never there until the gospel - writers quotemined them to construct the gospel story.

Going back to the OT, while a lot of it is going to contain Hebrew history with a polemic slant, there have to be some items that must be wrong.
Genesis and the Flood are surely unworkable despite desperate attempts to try to make the facts fit the theory or to adapt the theory to fit the facts, which is really just tacitly admitting that the facts are right, not the theory.

Saying that creation took billions of years but that's what the Bible says, if one simply says that 'six days' really means 'billions of years'. Well, it's a bit dishonest and also doesn't address the other problems which is another 'out of context' aspect.

Take the circle of the earth - a favourite attempt to make what's wrong look right. I can't recall how often I had to show that circle meant a flat circle (chwg) rather than a ball (dur) and often to the same person. It is hard to understand why there is such apparent dishonest refusal to update facts.

Apart from arguing from telling individual points there is the Bible overview - a recent identification of the spoor of several reworkings of the Jewish religion from some gods to one god amongst many to one lone god s very interesting and greeted with a sullen silence by believers.

That's another way of ignoring context - ignore the evidence.
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Old 11-07-2011, 07:59 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
49,187 posts, read 14,833,337 times
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P.s I did look at the video. It made me smile. Yes, it labours the point sorta but the point is valid that, where it suits the book of the believer, it is absolutely true and reliable and not open to criticism but, where it doesn't look so good it is nothing to do with God...or maybe it is, but it's man's fault anyway..or if not, it's ok if God says so..

Really it's just so much less stressful to not have to explain it away. Not that Bible critics don't have a lot of stress, too. The prophecy of Tyre, explain that! Medical knowledge in Leviticus, explain that! Noah's ark found on Ararat...no, scrub that...Moses' campsite found in Arabia. Explain that!. Yep, I have to admit that one keeps bothering me.
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Old 11-07-2011, 01:40 PM
 
639 posts, read 508,746 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbmsu01 View Post
I'm a Christian. The Bible is the true Word of God.

But it is silly to use standalone verses to prove anything, and it's downright wrong to have a belief, and then find Bible passages to support it, rather than letting the Spirit move you from reading the Bible passages first.
Haha...

SOME-one didn't watch the video.

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Old 11-07-2011, 06:48 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,900 posts, read 11,636,261 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbmsu01 View Post
I'm a Christian. The Bible is the true Word of God.

But it is silly to use standalone verses to prove anything, and it's downright wrong to have a belief, and then find Bible passages to support it, rather than letting the Spirit move you from reading the Bible passages first.
Kind of like having a belief in Christianity, and then looking for scientific facts to support it, without letting curiosity and a thirst for true knowlege guide you into an investigation of all the facts first.

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Old 11-07-2011, 07:09 PM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,552,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post
Kind of like having a belief in Christianity, and then looking for scientific facts to support it, without letting curiosity and a thirst for true knowlege guide you into an investigation of all the facts first.


Yes - very true!
But it's that same thirst for knowledge that sometimes leads someone into becoming a Christian. They just have the unfortunate luck of having someone tell them that the answers have already been figured out for them, and all they have to do is join up to become part of the club. Humans are social creatures, after all.

I have an acquaintance who actively proselytizes door-to-door, but claims that she has no desire whatsoever to 'reinvent the wheel' by researching her beliefs outside of her organization's literature, has utter faith in her organization's teachings (which she assumes has been rigorously tested and researched by competent researchers), and has an absolute deep mistrust of anyone who decides to learn the original languages, research for themselves, broaden their knowledge of the subject by independent research and reach their own conclusions - especially, if those conclusions contradict her organization's teachings.

So, unfortunately - a thirst for the truth, coupled with an utter lack of individual effort can result in a conversion to a religious group in which they can feel that they belong to some big cosmic secret truth. Their heart was in the right place, and it still is - it's important to never forget that.
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Old 11-07-2011, 08:43 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,900 posts, read 11,636,261 times
Reputation: 7260
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
I have an acquaintance who actively proselytizes door-to-door, but claims that she has no desire whatsoever to 'reinvent the wheel' by researching her beliefs outside of her organization's literature, has utter faith in her organization's teachings (which she assumes has been rigorously tested and researched by competent researchers), and has an absolute deep mistrust of anyone who decides to learn the original languages, research for themselves, broaden their knowledge of the subject by independent research and reach their own conclusions - especially, if those conclusions contradict her organization's teachings.
I think it'sjust easier to trust that someone else has done the research and confirmed everything rather than take the risk of shaking ones own faith.

Quote:
So, unfortunately - a thirst for the truth, coupled with an utter lack of individual effort can result in a conversion to a religious group in which they can feel that they belong to some big cosmic secret truth. Their heart was in the right place, and it still is - it's important to never forget that.
But where was their brain? { no offense to your freind }
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Old 11-07-2011, 08:51 PM
 
Location: Somewhere extremely awesome
3,117 posts, read 2,700,649 times
Reputation: 2440
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpc1 View Post
Haha...

SOME-one didn't watch the video.

Yeah, I watched the video. All it does is mock Christianity and Christians themselves. It's not informative, it uses petty arguments, and it's boring as well.

I want those six minutes of my life back.
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