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What lies? Just weave through this forum and you will see some atheists post that all religions are the same. Search google, you will find even more that claim it the same.
I agree. I didn't bring it up. It was unavoidable. She's an MK (missionary kid), and he's just intolerable. There was no doubt the conversation was going to go there. I was more of a deist at that time, but he didn't help to swing me back to Christianity (obviously). He made innumerable ignorant remarks that evening. Oh well. I live 1000 miles away from them now.
Really makes you wonder what the person sitting across from you at the dinner table is really thinking.....
Can't say as I blame you though, I have a few "praise the lord" and "god willing" typesv in my family, and it gets old, fast.
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Originally Posted by Asheville Native
A very tiny minority against a very tiny minority, if that. It is not 'religion' counter protesting Phelps and his hate, it is veterans, gays, people with gay family or friend.
Yes, phelps and his hate meet opposition, but it is not a church or religious denomination doing so, but people outraged by this mental midget and his hate. Phelps is still operating as a church (tax exempt, etc.). His church differs only from many others in the extremes of their methods, but not their message.
And how many of these people do you think might be Christian? How many of them may be counter protesting because they see what these hate mongers are doing in the name of Christianity? You make a lot of assumptions, but have yet to back them up with statistics or fact.
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Originally Posted by raison_d'etre
So you are telling me that all of those veterans, gays, and people with gay family and friends are all atheists? yeah...ok. That's why you see signs on the counter protest side saying "GOD LOVES ALL", etc, etc.
Woops..... you aren't supposed to notice that, AshNat doesn't.
We only see the things that we want to see and ignore the rest. It's true of all of us in some form or another.
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I want to know what churches you have attended that share the message that Phelps is spreading?
There is little doubt in my mind that there are many. Saying they ALL or even most do though is an uninformed and inaccurate statement.
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Originally Posted by KCfromNC
Examples?
I've already told you that it can't be summed up in one example or quote.
What lies? Just weave through this forum and you will see some atheists post that all religions are the same.
Did you actually read any of these links? I doubt it, because they don't seem to have much to do with concluding that all religions are bad because of a few bad people. For example, "the problem of evil" in religion isn't saying religion is bad - it's trying to figure out how to explain the existence of evil in a world where a benevolent god supposedly exists. Others seem to be saying that the net effect of religion is bad - which means that they understand that there's both good and bad but just disagree with you on the overall net benefit.
Again, lots of shoddy "research" here to back up yet another thread blaming atheists for saying things they don't say. It's why no one can actually provide quotes from non-believers which match what the OP claims they say.
I do not believe that all religion is evil. Only the ones which believe that they are the only 'right' religion, the ones that proselytize and do not accept other religions as equally valid paths to god and try to take over the politics of a nation and force everyone to live by their dictates are evil. This is what causes division and resentment. It is members of these religions who are being trained that it is godly to lack respect for others.
I would venture that if these religions would not do these things or adopt these attitudes then most atheists would not resent them so much.
As they are today, I think they are a threat to civilization.
Did you actually read any of these links? I doubt it, because they don't seem to have much to do with concluding that all religions are bad because of a few bad people. For example, "the problem of evil" in religion isn't saying religion is bad - it's trying to figure out how to explain the existence of evil in a world where a benevolent god supposedly exists. Others seem to be saying that the net effect of religion is bad - which means that they understand that there's both good and bad but just disagree with you on the overall net benefit.
Again, lots of shoddy "research" here to back up yet another thread blaming atheists for saying things they don't say. It's why no one can actually provide quotes from non-believers which match what the OP claims they say.
I would love to give you some quotes.
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Religion is evil, it is monstrous, it is delusion, and it needs to go so our species can advance.
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Religion is the AIDS virus of ideologies.
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Religion is a clear and present danger to society!
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This is just another reason why the cancer of religion needs to be eradicated.
There are many more. Nice job leaving Dawkins out of it.
The whole point of this thread is to point out that yes, there are bad religious/spiritual/atheist PEOPLE, most aren't. MOST are decent people who keep to themselves and leave you be as long as you do the same.
The whole point of this thread is to point out that yes, there are bad religious/spiritual/atheist PEOPLE, most aren't. MOST are decent people who keep to themselves and leave you be as long as you do the same.
Dawkins isn't "extremist" nor is he "bad". He's just eloquent, VERY well educated to the point of being one of those few individuals in this world who actually expands the frontiers of our knowledge through his own research, and then not afraid of the fallout when he tells others about it. as well, because of the content of his seminars and presentations, he is attacked by others, when you or they certainly were not forced to attend or to listen to his presentations. Essentially, he HAS left uninterested Christians alone, and is protected by free speech to say whatever he chooses to. Christians certainly do, all the time, every Sunday on Evangelical TV shows.
The issue he usually (or is it always?) faces is that he stirs up the hornet's nest of radical "You Shut Up!" Christians who then also mock or mis-quote him, or claim they won the debate with him, or that he's somehow frightened to debate with them for fear of losing.... ()
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Well, such is the life of a true sooth-sayer and prophet, huh? After all, they mocked Jesus too, right? I can see where Richard Dawkin's knowledge would be quite a threat to a devout, fantasy & faith-based Christian's hard-held beliefs, yep. I can see that.
(But OK: If you want to, please... point out a specific claim or statement Dr. Dawkins has made that is, in your head, erroneous, and tell us all about it. But then be prepared to defend your claim against the response.)
It often occurs in most debates about religion. Some will post that because some(few) religions and spiritual paths do bad things, all must be bad.
This is true of BOTH sides of the debate so it is somewhat disingenuous of you to only "paint" it for one. How often on these forums do we see people say things like "Stalin was an atheist, so look how bad atheism is"? We have a user 007.5 going around for example saying that because he was an immoral person himself when he was an atheist, that means atheists are immoral and think immoral life styles are ok.
BOTH sides are guilty of this and I attack people on BOTH sides when I see them engaged in it. I no more want it from atheists than I do theists.
The question that should be asked is not "Are there atheists/theists that do bad things". Of course there will be. Lots of them.
The question to be asked is "Is there anything about atheism/theism that can specifically lead people to do bad things". This is a more telling question and I have yet to be shown any causal link between atheism and immorality and bad actions. With theism however I can list many things that specifically lead to potential harm, bad action and immorality.
What makes this worse is that the harm religion causes is washed over by people pointing out that there are religious people who have done good things... as if this somehow justifies the existence and utility of religion.
How about the Tree of Sharing and Local church helps feed hungry children worldwide
What about them? It has been pointed out on a number of occasions on this forum that Hamass provides social services in Gaza and louis farrakan does community work in that he gets young black men off drugs. Does that for ONE moment excuse the fact that the first is a militarized terrorist organisation with a fanatical antisemitic ideology or that the latter runs a racist crackpot cult? No.
You are guilty of your accusation. In the OP you say people are focusing on the bad things religious people have done and attack the religion as a whole in response.
What you need to realise is the opposite is true too. You are focusing on the good things some religious people have done, and are trying to extrapolate from this that the religion itself is good/useful/moral.
Both extrapolations are as bad as each other and if you wish to condemn people extrapolating individual bad action into an attack on a religion... you need to condemn those who extrapolate individual good action as a defense of them.
Otherwise you are being intellectually dishonest and acting like you can just disown the bad for everyone and claim the good for everyone. A little bit too convenient for you I feel.
Again the question should be changed and one should focus on whether there are actual causal links between atheism/theism and good/bad actions. Not whether people who are atheist/theist perform good/bad actions on individual or group basis. The reason most theists do NOT ask the question that way however is that they rarely come out looking good from the answers.
Again, none of these back up your original claim, which was that atheists believe that all religion is evil because a few people do bad things. In fact, the ones which address religion are pretty specific in saying that religion isn't all bad - the discussions about the net benefit and discussions of difference between various brands of religion, for example. These show that non-believers have a much more nuanced view of religion than you're giving them credit for, but that's no surprise since if you honestly addressed what they wrote you'd have no reason for the original rant in the first place.
If all you're saying is that some people believe that religion does more harm than good, than that's a different discussion - one which contradicts what you claimed in your original post, by the way.
The question to be asked is "Is there anything about atheism/theism that can specifically lead people to do bad things". This is a more telling question .
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Good point!
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