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Old 11-11-2011, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,984 posts, read 13,407,878 times
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Theists claim that "god / Allah / etc." created the universe, invented life and watches over us today. However, I believe that the very concept of god is meaningless because it has no basis in observed reality or logic.

The common conceptions of god that we get from the Bible, Tanakh, and Qur'an are logically incongruent. God is said to be immaterial, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent. However, these attributes are both undefinable and logically contradictory.

Omniscience and omnipresence are both logically impossible and inconceivable, and omnipotence and omnibenevolence are not consistent with the observed evidence in the universe.

Saying the universe was created by god is like saying the universe was created by flargnulp. It is a meaningless proposition. It's gibberish.
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Old 11-11-2011, 12:41 PM
 
3,483 posts, read 4,042,995 times
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Humanity has shown that logic has not always been on the top of the list for "why we do what we do". We did our thing for countless millennia without it, until the Greeks introduced it as a philosophic principle and bequeathed it to Western Civilization. Even after that, it was not always the guiding principle of humanity.

Thousands upon thousands of years of human history, human achievements, human religious sentiments and human passions have quite definitely proven that a thing's value does not alwys depend on logic - that most coldest and stifling concepts of the mind. We may try to use it to point out a suggested way for humans to behave, but our species has proven to be greatly resilient to such narrow avenues of approching life.

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Old 11-11-2011, 01:47 PM
 
2,469 posts, read 3,130,211 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
Humanity has shown that logic has not always been on the top of the list for "why we do what we do". We did our thing for countless millennia without it, until the Greeks introduced it as a philosophic principle and bequeathed it to Western Civilization. Even after that, it was not always the guiding principle of humanity.

Thousands upon thousands of years of human history, human achievements, human religious sentiments and human passions have quite definitely proven that a thing's value does not alwys depend on logic - that most coldest and stifling concepts of the mind. We may try to use it to point out a suggested way for humans to behave, but our species has proven to be greatly resilient to such narrow avenues of approching life.

Well, put.

Northstar,
Some concepts we consider meaninful, are meaningless to others.
We can't help but think "unrealistically" because we are so very very limited & picky about out awareness.
But, since we're speaking about logic... we want to be happy, right?
Consider what makes us happy... unexpected pleasant surprises (which may or may not be based on logic), great entertainment - music & movies (often with a mix of logic & fantasy)... etc.
So, logically speaking (I think lol)... pure logic doesn't make us happy... but usually a mix of logic & some great imaginative enjoyment.
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Old 11-11-2011, 05:13 PM
 
9,689 posts, read 10,008,103 times
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Sure all the five senses are sight, touch, hearing, smell, a tasting, for the natural world , so if you judge the physical reality on these five senses then if the Living God has more senses and a atheist rejects God then God will never give the person who rejects him anything as the things of God belong to Jesus and Him alone ....... So when a man accepts Jesus the way Jesus plan for all then Jesus will give the man New senses in the realm of the spirit and see behind the veil of the spirit into the area of the devil for your protection and also into the senses of experiencing God and His kingdom of Heaven ...... Or you can just live your life with the only five senses and be only half a man God plan for you , as everything that belong to Jesus belong to you , if only you reach out and seek the face of the living God and His plan for you and your family for an eternal life ...
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Old 11-11-2011, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
2,705 posts, read 3,119,187 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northstar22 View Post
Theists claim that "god / Allah / etc." created the universe, invented life and watches over us today. However, I believe that the very concept of god is meaningless because it has no basis in observed reality or logic.

The common conceptions of god that we get from the Bible, Tanakh, and Qur'an are logically incongruent. God is said to be immaterial, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent. However, these attributes are both undefinable and logically contradictory.

Omniscience and omnipresence are both logically impossible and inconceivable, and omnipotence and omnibenevolence are not consistent with the observed evidence in the universe.

Saying the universe was created by god is like saying the universe was created by flargnulp. It is a meaningless proposition. It's gibberish.
If you say so...
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Old 11-12-2011, 12:01 AM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
2,705 posts, read 3,119,187 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSoul View Post
Well, put.

Northstar,
Some concepts we consider meaninful, are meaningless to others.
We can't help but think "unrealistically" because we are so very very limited & picky about out awareness.
But, since we're speaking about logic... we want to be happy, right?
Consider what makes us happy... unexpected pleasant surprises (which may or may not be based on logic), great entertainment - music & movies (often with a mix of logic & fantasy)... etc.
So, logically speaking (I think lol)... pure logic doesn't make us happy... but usually a mix of logic & some great imaginative enjoyment.
Human beings don't run on pure logic, like machines. But some people are more machinelike than others.
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Old 11-12-2011, 12:14 AM
 
Location: southern california
61,288 posts, read 87,384,526 times
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u r so right for the unbeliever it is gibberish. the wisdom of the scripture to him is nonsense.
ask u a question have you actually ever read KJV all of it or the quran all of it? I have-- and recently. its not nonsense friend. your statements that logic and reality exist in a vacuum are unsupported opinion.
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Old 11-12-2011, 12:45 AM
 
Location: Washingtonville
2,505 posts, read 2,325,365 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northstar22 View Post
Theists claim that "god / Allah / etc." created the universe, invented life and watches over us today. However, I believe that the very concept of god is meaningless because it has no basis in observed reality or logic.

The common conceptions of god that we get from the Bible, Tanakh, and Qur'an are logically incongruent. God is said to be immaterial, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent. However, these attributes are both undefinable and logically contradictory.

Omniscience and omnipresence are both logically impossible and inconceivable, and omnipotence and omnibenevolence are not consistent with the observed evidence in the universe.

Saying the universe was created by god is like saying the universe was created by flargnulp. It is a meaningless proposition. It's gibberish.
If we applied logic to all aspects of life, we would be cold and emotion-less. Martin luther king jr never would have given his speech, man would never have walked on the moon, and we would never pursue our dreams and ambitions. If we lived by logic, we would still be living in caves. Logic isn't reasonable in all cases.

Think of any story that defied all odds, if you apply logic to them, they never should have happened. logic teaches us to let go of hope. You can keep your logic, I'm going to hang on to my dreams and hope.

Edit: Wait a minute, this just came to me. Logic is open to interpretation and always being redefined, what is logical to one isnt to another, so wouldn't that essentially make logic itself meaningless? Logic requires no evidence for its validation or support. Religion requires no evidence for its validation or support. Is anyone else confused? I don't get how someone can say it is not logical to believe in a God, religious beliefs, and anything spiritual without empirical evidence. Wouldn't the same hold true to logic and reason? You say there is no God, based on what? The logic that there is no evidence therefor it can't be true.

Lets apply logic to a few other things and see what we get.

Love: You love your family, your pets, and even some people love food, cars, and money. There is no evidence for love, you can't weigh it, see it, or hold it in your hand. Therefor, love logically cannot exist.

Fear: People fear all sorts of things. Again, you can't weigh it, see it, or hold it in your hand. So this too cannot logically exist.

You may not see a reason or find meaning in belief in a God, but many do.

Last edited by raison_d'etre; 11-12-2011 at 01:24 AM..
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Old 11-12-2011, 01:34 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,943 posts, read 6,062,204 times
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I think you are all wrong with your demeaning of logic... first of all, machines DONT run or use logic the way we do (reasoning) yet, and secondly logic doesn't make a thinker cold and emotion-less unless they are naturally prone to such disposition. logic helped Martin Luther king Jr achieve what he did, logic helped man walk on the moon, logic helps us pursue our dreams and ambitions.
logic ... oh wait, im guessing you're kidding.
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Old 11-12-2011, 01:47 AM
 
Location: Washingtonville
2,505 posts, read 2,325,365 times
Reputation: 441
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
I think you are all wrong with your demeaning of logic... first of all, machines DONT run or use logic the way we do (reasoning) yet, and secondly logic doesn't make a thinker cold and emotion-less unless they are naturally prone to such disposition. logic helped Martin Luther king Jr achieve what he did, logic helped man walk on the moon, logic helps us pursue our dreams and ambitions.
logic ... oh wait, im guessing you're kidding.
No, cause logic tells us that it is not reasonable to follow ones dreams and to deal with life as it currently is. Well, the type of logic the OP is talking about. This is what I mean, logic is open to interpritation. To one it is logical to believe in God, to another it is illogical. So basically, logic has no place in this arena. Since there is no evidence to support the existence or non-existence of a god or things spiritual, you can't really use logic. Logic is knowing to look before crossing the street, logic is knowing not to touch a fire, logic is knowing that if you drop a rock it will fall. When it comes to religious ideals, it has no real application.
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