"The answer is Mormon", according to the Hell Director (LDS, Isaac)

[xVanillaBearx]

Originally Posted by SuperSoul

"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned,"-Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 266). Also, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy," -Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269).

Some of the prominent LDS/Mormon leaders who practiced polygamy & the number of wives they had:

Joseph Smith: 33 wives (including some who were already married to other men)
Brigham Young: 55 wives
Heber C. Kimball: 45 wives
William Smith: 22 wives
Orson Pratt: 10 wives
Orson Hyde: 9 wives
Parley P. Pratt: 11 wives
John Taylor: 9 wives
Erastus Snow: 16 wives
Ezra T. Benson: 8 wives
Heber J. Grant: 3 wives
Joseph F. Smith: 6 wives
Lorenzo Snow: 11 wives
John Taylor: 9 wives
Wilford Woodruff: 9 wives

Yes you can give facts, but for beyond decades now the LDS church has stayed away from this part of practice. No one knows exactly why they allowed polygamy for only that time, and keep in mind that the LDS faith believes that God continually gives command and counsel, to continually help everyone progress in this ever-changing world. These men were doing what men have done since Adam and Eve--doing as God commands. How many people do you think lived by "eye for an eye" and how many people stoned adulterers? People still do that now, and there are people who still practice polygamy, but does it make it "right" or "moral" now? No, it doesn't, because laws change over time--not just because of state or federal laws, but because God says "okay, that is enough". I don't know God's reasoning for changing His laws, but that's how He is, and if someone wants to believe in Him and believe there's a purpose for change, then do what God commands (that part is called Agency, which we were given in Heaven).

[jdaelectro]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I'm sorry you feel that way. Mormonism actually teaches that there is only one Christ, one Messiah sent to the earth to teach His gospel, live a perfect, sinless life, to suffer and die for our sins and to rise again on the third day after His death. We don't teach that there were additional Christs to choose from.

No, Just a different one from scripture.

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I guess that would make Lutheranism, Catholicism, Methodism, and all other denominations of Christianity equally pointless.

Yes, It would. You guessed right.

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Somehow, I don't think that just because Christ's work is finished, we are to discontinue worshipping Him and learning about Him.

Who said anything about discontinued worship?

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I disagree. I believe that a God who is the same yesterday, today and forever would not suddenly just stop communicating to mankind the way He did for 4000 years and instead leave us with just a book to go on.

Well, Genesis alone accounts for 2k years give or take.

Seems you have put restrictions on what God does.

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Christianity's one book has given rise to more than 30,000 different denominations,

Blame man for that. Not God.

Originally Posted by Katzpur

rather than just the one faith that was to exist until we all came into the unity of our faith in Christ.

That ONE faith HAS existed. Man continues to come up with more and more doctrine.

Originally Posted by Katzpur

With the exception of just a very tiny number of people, yes.

WIDE is the path that leads to destruction.

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I don't believe the things I do because they make me feel good,

Oh really?

Originally Posted by Katzpur

but you know what?

What?

Originally Posted by Katzpur

It really does make me feel good

Bingo!

Originally Posted by Katzpur

God loves all of His children and how much He wants all of us to be blessed by that love.

Except we aren't ALL of His. Some choose to follow the dark one as evident by the fallen society.

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I don't think I would feel good knowing

There you go with your feelings again. His thoughts are not our thoughts.

Originally Posted by Katzpur

God created so many billions of us just so that we could be His eternal firewood.

WE?

We have a choice. Free will. Remember?

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Do these well-wishes come before or after, "You're going to burn in Hell because you worship the 'wrong' Christ!"?

I never condemned "you" to hell. Scripture speaks for itself.

Stop listening to the man made religion of mormonism and listen to the Holy Spirit.

[Woof]

Originally Posted by jdaelectro

.....I never condemned "you" to hell. Scripture speaks for itself.

Stop listening to the man made religion of mormonism and listen to the Holy Spirit.

Not only does the Bible NOT speak for itself (the thousands of different sects were mostly started by people with an honest difference of opinion on what it says - for example if Jesus is "one with God", does that mean he IS God, or that he is one with God in purpose?), but the Bible is also demonstrably NOT the perfect word of God .... not unless God is in the habit of contradicting himself frequently and making mistakes of fact.

For example, Matthew shows a "scheme of 14s" in laying out his genealogy of Jesus - 14 generations from Adam to whomever, and then another 14 to David, then another 14 to Christ. The only problem is that it doesn't match up with what was presented in the Old Testament. Not in the numbers, and often not in the names. Why couldn't the Holy Spirit get it right?

How about the final words of Jesus, which contradict among 3 of the gospel authors:

matt 27:45 From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. 46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi,[c] lama sabachthani?”—which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”[d]
47 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, “He’s calling Elijah.”

48 Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49 The rest said, “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to save him.”

50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

Luke 23:44 It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.

John 19:28 Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” 29 A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. 30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.”

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, Jdaelectro.

You believe that only a lucky few get into Heaven, based on what they believe in, not their deeds. So if you believe in Once Saved, Always Saved (another bone of contention in the "obvious" Bible), you would have to believe that Stalin made it into Heaven, while Gandhi and Samuel Clemens are in Hell eternally.

But that ridiculous belief - yes ridiculous, worthy of snide remarks and laughter - is based on a clearly flawed Bible. It should be obvious that a loving, merciful God wouldn't torture one of his creations eternally for an honestly mistaken theology or not believing that Jesus is God ....... but if it's not obvious enough, there are the numerous mistakes and contradictions in the Bible to underscore that it's just not reliable enough of a guide to take a coupla statements about eternal hell seriously. (not to mention that the only time Jesus talked about "eternal punishment" in matt 25:31-46 was when he said the cause of it was deeds, not belief about him).

[whoppers]

Originally Posted by Woof

Not only does the Bible NOT speak for itself (the thousands of different sects were mostly started by people with an honest difference of opinion on what it says - for example if Jesus is "one with God", does that mean he IS God, or that he is one with God in purpose?), but the Bible is also demonstrably NOT the perfect word of God .... not unless God is in the habit of contradicting himself frequently and making mistakes of fact.

For example, Matthew shows a "scheme of 14s" in laying out his genealogy of Jesus - 14 generations from Adam to whomever, and then another 14 to David, then another 14 to Christ. The only problem is that it doesn't match up with what was presented in the Old Testament. Not in the numbers, and often not in the names. Why couldn't the Holy Spirit get it right?

How about the final words of Jesus, which contradict among 3 of the gospel authors:






People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, Jdaelectro.

You believe that only a lucky few get into Heaven, based on what they believe in, not their deeds. So if you believe in Once Saved, Always Saved (another bone of contention in the "obvious" Bible), you would have to believe that Stalin made it into Heaven, while Gandhi and Samuel Clemens are in Hell eternally.

But that ridiculous belief - yes ridiculous, worthy of snide remarks and laughter - is based on a clearly flawed Bible. It should be obvious that a loving, merciful God wouldn't torture one of his creations eternally for an honestly mistaken theology or not believing that Jesus is God ....... but if it's not obvious enough, there are the numerous mistakes and contradictions in the Bible to underscore that it's just not reliable enough of a guide to take a coupla statements about eternal hell seriously. (not to mention that the only time Jesus talked about "eternal punishment" in matt 25:31-46 was when he said the cause of it was deeds, not belief about him).

Good post!

Ever since that troubling passage in Daniel 12:1-2 (finished in the 2nd Century BC - despite it's narrating of earlier events in an attempt to give the book an air of legitimacy it never should have had) in which the faithful Jews will receive everlasting life, while the apostate Jews will receive everlasting shame and contempt - many Jews adopted the idea that the older Deuteronomic ideas of reward and punishment (ONLY during one's life) would give way to ideas of reward and punishment AFTER one's life. Thus, a key problem of Theodicy (why do some good people following Deuteronomic principles die young and suffer, while some evil people live long, prosperous lives) was solved by extending Justice to an afterlife.

This idea disagrees with all who wrote before Daniel, but was unfortunately a very popular idea. It's a shame that many later exegetes focused on the Book of Daniel (a clear example of a pseudepigraphic forgery) and it's ideas of the End Times, to the expense of the more likely explanation of the rest of the Hebrew Bible that man's fate is mortailty, and both good and bad end up in the same place: the grave. Neither reward or punishment is doled out in that place - so enjoy life while you can!

I'll defer my belief on this concept to the pre-Daniel writers, and just ignore the exegetical (and Hellenized) ideas that the Christians added to the mix - punishment/reward afterlife beliefs seem to be a cop-out of the Theodicy Issue that the "Wisdom School" struggled with.

[Woof]

Thanks for giving us some background on the development of afterlife theology, Whopper. I have to say though, I'm hoping for an afterlife with just (not eternal) judgment for certain assh*les ..... though my hope for that isn't based on the Bible!

[D217]

South Park And The Mormons - YouTube

"Ow!" lol

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by jdaelectro

No, Just a different one from scripture.

Yes, It would. You guessed right.

Who said anything about discontinued worship?

Well, Genesis alone accounts for 2k years give or take.

Seems you have put restrictions on what God does.



Blame man for that. Not God.


That ONE faith HAS existed. Man continues to come up with more and more doctrine.



WIDE is the path that leads to destruction.



Oh really?

What?

Bingo!

Except we aren't ALL of His. Some choose to follow the dark one as evident by the fallen society.


There you go with your feelings again. His thoughts are not our thoughts.

WE?

We have a choice. Free will. Remember?



I never condemned "you" to hell. Scripture speaks for itself.

Stop listening to the man made religion of mormonism and listen to the Holy Spirit.

jdaelectro, we evidently disagree on a number of points, but based upon how you have responded to the things I've said so far, it doesn't seem to me as if there is much point in our continued discussion. I'm always interested in having a dialogue with someone who believes differently than I do, but juvenile one-liners do nothing to promote understanding. As far as I'm concerned, if you have to undercut someone else's position to make yours look good, you don't have much of a position yourself.

[Fullback32]

Just for the record, there are some South Park episodes where they bag on atheists as well ("Go God Go", "Go God Go XII", "Red Hot Catholic Love". They'll satirize of everyone and anyone. Despite its crude and crass humor, it's actually a much smarter show than many realize. One has to understand the Libertarian foundations of it creators though.

[Hueffenhardt]

Yeah, the guy that did the voice for the character "Chef", joined right along in the satire of every religion until the show satired Scientology, and then he quit because he was a Scientologist.

[Fillmont]

Katzpur, have you had the chance to watch the Mormon South Park episode yet? Would be curious what you think.