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Old 01-09-2012, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,612 posts, read 4,898,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catman View Post
hiker45: Theists' beliefs only necessarily have "disturbing implications" for you when their beliefs influence the law.
Yeah, that's what I think.

But that guy Tillich thinks their so-called "dusturbing implications" are what drive us to be Atheists.

What nonsense!
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Old 01-10-2012, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
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So no one else cares to dissect the blatherings of Paul Tillich?
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Dallas, Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
So no one else cares to dissect the blatherings of Paul Tillich?
I think he's approaching atheism in the same way many theists on these boards do: as children petulantly shaking their fists at god.

To some, the idea of existence without a belief in god is so outlandish that they can't rightly conceptualize what that would be like. So instead they assume that atheists actually do believe in god, but just want to rebel against him.

Of course, this is just one paragraph, so I might be misreading what Paul Tillich is actually trying to say.
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Old 01-10-2012, 04:04 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,612 posts, read 4,898,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fillmont View Post
I think he's approaching atheism in the same way many theists on these boards do: as children petulantly shaking their fists at god.

To some, the idea of existence without a belief in god is so outlandish that they can't rightly conceptualize what that would be like. So instead they assume that atheists actually do believe in god, but just want to rebel against him.

Of course, this is just one paragraph, so I might be misreading what Paul Tillich is actually trying to say.
Yeah, that's what I thought Tillich was saying in his silly comments.

He probably cannot comprehend how a person can go outside and look at this wonderful world and not see a god.
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Old 01-10-2012, 09:28 PM
 
2,468 posts, read 3,133,273 times
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I wasn't expecting this thread to be so funny!
Thanks for the comments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiker
So no one else cares to dissect the blatherings of Paul Tillich?
"MC Hamma... "Break it down..." (Actually I'm very far from any MC Hammer... but I'll give it a shot...)
Quote:
deprives me of my subjectivity because he is all-powerful and all-knowing,
Substitute "he" for COMPLETE 100% TRUTH.
Truth from all perspectives... "all knowing" makes my subjectivity deprive me of all truth.


Quote:
I revolt and make him into an object, but the revolt fails and becomes desperate.
I can't stand to realize that I "CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!"... (I revolt) and make truth into an object... less than what it is (everything).
Quote:
God appears as the invincible tyrant, the being in contrast with whom all beings are without freedom and subjectivity.
I make God out to be whatever I project from my own shadow (undealt-with) self - "appearing" as an "invincible tyrant," without freedom & individualism (subjectivity).
Quote:
He is equated with the recent tyrants who with the help of terror try to transform everything into a mere object, a thing among things, a cog in a machine they control.
God's definition is simply a projection... "equated" with what people hope for or are most afraid of... "recent tyrants who with the help of terror try to transform everything into a mere object" ... a scapegoat, an idol to be worshiped, a red herring (cog)... objectification to detract from what is most important.

Quote:
He becomes the model of everything against which Existentialism revolted.
Existentialism (& IMO TRUE Christianity, Buddhism & probably the heart of other religions)... is against herd thinking. It's against brain washing, living according to a religion's misteachings of damnation, brokenness, power, hell, fear & shame. Yet God, has come to symbolize this misdefinition of God... & of course people with any brains... reject such a God.
Quote:
This is the God Nietzsche said had to be killed because nobody could tolerate being made into a mere object of absolute knowledge and absolute control.
I don't know much about Nietzsche, other than he rejected Christianity for making people out to be weak. I'm realizing this orthodox teaching of "brokenness" & weakness is not only unlike God but also unChristian. The bible has been messed up by many - to keep people submissive to political & religious authorities. Yet, because it's so engrained in tradition, many don't question it & may even condemn other for questioning it (as they're taught to).

The idea of human sacrifice today would not only be considered disgustingly immoral, but also legally wrong. Why do people choose this story? I understand the desire to feel saved... but that gives away necessary power... Power that Jesus himself taught was not external... but WITHIN US. (Luke 17:22)


Quote:
This is the deepest root of atheism. It is an atheism which is justified as the reaction against theological theism and it's disturbing implications.
Quote:
Paul Tillich
Atheism is defined incorrectly in dictionaries, IMO.
Atheism should be defined: The theory or belief that... many religious theories & traditions of God are full of it.

God... who is God?
Atheists never answer that besides borrowing theological definitions.
God represents LIFE.
You can't deny life. It's all around us - it's part of us.
Our goals are to live the best life we can... that's God.
We're all pursuing our "ultimate concern" (GOD... or that which is GOoD)... continually... & in many different ways, & stages, as mentioned.
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Old 01-11-2012, 12:42 AM
 
Location: Metromess
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God is an invention of man. Sorry, but life is quite able to represent itself. If another representation is needed, there are myriad other things one can use.
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:47 AM
 
2,468 posts, read 3,133,273 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catman View Post
God is an invention of man. Sorry, but life is quite able to represent itself. If another representation is needed, there are myriad other things one can use.
True...except let me clarify... Definitions of God are inventions of man.
You can call God whatever you want... & we do... Truth, Creator, Love, arguing Atheism with divine passion...
Whatever most concerns us is what we "worship" as God.
As Shakespeare said, "What's in a name? That which we call a rose. ... By any other name would smell as sweet."

Yet, considering harm some definitions of God have caused, redefining God to mean "ultimate concern" is more healthy than definitions like... "Tyranical Grandpa in the sky." Wouldn't you agree, Catman?
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Old 01-11-2012, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,612 posts, read 4,898,289 times
Reputation: 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSoul View Post
Atheism is defined incorrectly in dictionaries, IMO.
Atheism should be defined: The theory or belief that... many religious theories & traditions of God are full of it.
I don't have any hostility toward organized religions, so I don't like to say they "are full of it".

My disbelief in a god is probably very much like your disbelief in the flying spaghetti monster.
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:02 PM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 25,196,822 times
Reputation: 5220
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSoul View Post
, considering harm some definitions of God have caused, redefining God to mean "ultimate concern" is more healthy than definitions like... "Tyranical Grandpa in the sky." Wouldn't you agree, Catman?
Yes, SuperSoul, I agree with that as far as it goes, but fortunately that isn't the only choice I have. If God can be defined any way one wants, doesn't that cast doubt upon the entire concept? It makes the definitions ultimately meaningless if there is no standard agreed-upon definition. Everyone who believes is talking about something different.
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:50 PM
 
63,845 posts, read 40,128,566 times
Reputation: 7882
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSoul View Post
I wasn't expecting this thread to be so funny!
Thanks for the comments.

"MC Hamma... "Break it down..." (Actually I'm very far from any MC Hammer... but I'll give it a shot...)
Substitute "he" for COMPLETE 100% TRUTH.
Truth from all perspectives... "all knowing" makes my subjectivity deprive me of all truth.


I can't stand to realize that I "CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!"... (I revolt) and make truth into an object... less than what it is (everything).
I make God out to be whatever I project from my own shadow (undealt-with) self - "appearing" as an "invincible tyrant," without freedom & individualism (subjectivity).
God's definition is simply a projection... "equated" with what people hope for or are most afraid of... "recent tyrants who with the help of terror try to transform everything into a mere object" ... a scapegoat, an idol to be worshiped, a red herring (cog)... objectification to detract from what is most important.

Existentialism (& IMO TRUE Christianity, Buddhism & probably the heart of other religions)... is against herd thinking. It's against brain washing, living according to a religion's misteachings of damnation, brokenness, power, hell, fear & shame. Yet God, has come to symbolize this misdefinition of God... & of course people with any brains... reject such a God.
I don't know much about Nietzsche, other than he rejected Christianity for making people out to be weak. I'm realizing this orthodox teaching of "brokenness" & weakness is not only unlike God but also unChristian. The bible has been messed up by many - to keep people submissive to political & religious authorities. Yet, because it's so engrained in tradition, many don't question it & may even condemn other for questioning it (as they're taught to).

The idea of human sacrifice today would not only be considered disgustingly immoral, but also legally wrong. Why do people choose this story? I understand the desire to feel saved... but that gives away necessary power... Power that Jesus himself taught was not external... but WITHIN US. (Luke 17:22)
You did an admirable job of breaking it down, IMO . . . Super. Just thought someone should acknowledge that and not just debate the atheism bit.
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