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Leave it to you to overstate your position, rifle. The very things you attribute to our ignorance in the guise of euphemisms like, "self-organizing," "self-reproducing," "emergent," "random mutation,""natural selection," etc. are the very places theistic evolution inserts God instead. Hardly a dodge, rifle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur
How is it not a dodge?
I assume you skimmed over the bold without comprehension or contemplation of its implications. Euphemistic non-explanations have no more scientific value than the non-explanations using God. They are equivalent non-explanations based on preference . . . not a dodge.
I assume you skimmed over the bold without comprehension or contemplation of its implications. Euphemistic non-explanations have no more scientific value than the non-explanations using God. They are equivalent non-explanations based on preference . . . not a dodge.
I would expect that you would not think it was a dodge, since you think nature and god are one and the same...Theistic evolution claims that god set it in motion rather than created life exactly as we see it today...As long a person thinks god is involved it is still a fallacy.
I have pondered the issue of the creation of man from a religious point of view and concluded that if I was God I would have created MAN as we are.
Free will (and freedom) is what makes the creation of MAN perfect. Because of free will we can choose the good path or the evil way. If we could not choose evil then we would be like programmed robots. IMHO, we need to have the freedom to make errors. If we could not make mistakes life could be quite boring.
Others think that the creation of MAN is imperfect because there is suffering in the world. Ivan from Brothers Karamazov struggled with this concept.
However, if we want free will we have to accept that some of us will have bad outcomes. A guaranteed perfect outcome for all would feel un-natural. Who would want to play golf if you make a birdie in every hole?
We're perfectly imperfect.
Gotta love the paradoxes!
I have to admit, you and others picking on people like Mystic baffles me.
Picking on? Oh get over your persecution complex please. This is a discussion forum. People post their opinions and other people agree/disagree with them. Disagreement is not the same as "picking on". If you can not handle disagreement then I question the wisdom of using a discussion forum at all. Or as they say "Can not stand the heat? Do not go in the kitchen". Especially given most of the replies I get from the user in question are insults, invective and snideness. Rarely is evidence posted, citations made, or arguments presented so I am not sure what you want to "learn from" this user.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSoul
I thought that the whole reason why you hated the definition of God is because some take it to extremes & thereby harm themselves &/or others.
Did you now? I can not imagine why given I have never said any such thing. Perhaps you are mixing me up with someone else? I think what you will find I say often on this forum is that my main problem... if not my only problem.... is with "unsubstantiated claims". If I see them I call foul on them. Regardless of whether those claims are extreme or harmful or not.
√ I have to admit, you and others picking on people like Mystic baffles me.
I thought that the whole reason why you hated the definition of God is because some take it to extremes & thereby harm themselves &/or others.
√ I see Mystic as someone who takes a middle-ground...
√ He realizes he doesn't know everything, but that there is power in belief.
Oh my!
Mystic will be the first to confirm that he doesn't actually take any middle ground positions.
He simply inserts "GOD" for "Nature", all while disclaiming that ugly word (the scientific "N" word!) as incomprehensible and a dodge. We know, of course, that in fact it's an observable, documentable and credible explanation that utilizes known/established interactions, theorems, facts and even, yup, good old hypotheses well on their way to credibility.
Specifically, "he simply knows what he knows!", and he's thoroughly convinced that's not only his belief, but indeed it's part and parcel of The Absolute Greater Universal Truth, since, after all, he's had "those experiences"!
And not only that, he's subsequently mulled it all through at (ahem) a much higher plane of intellect than the rest of us sorry fellows an even begin to muster.
My point, that you seemed to be too overwhelmed to realize...is...
I thought atheists were more concerned with extreme fundamental theists.
Mystic was a an atheist... so all of your arguments may likely be preaching to a choir from the 80's.
Why don't you save your godly passion for that which atheism is really about... denying fundamental, orthodox, theological definitions of God?
Is the creation of MAN* perfect?
or
Is there an imperfection in MAN?
What is a perfect MAN?
Point out any imperfections.
*In this instance MAN means both men and women.
Back to OP...
As Julian mentioned, our imperfections have purpose... to learn & progress.
Spiral dynamics, like the stages of human development presented by Erikson are helpful in understanding our psychological & spiritual progress.
Jim Marion wrote about spiritual stages, which I'm putting in my own words & may be more integral than progressing like a ladder.
1. Archaic & Magical Consciousness - codependent narcissism (like that of infants)
2. Mythic Consciousness Ability to discern good from evil - belief that all should believe as they do (basis for religious wars)
3. Rational Consciousness level - Questioning myths, worship of science, The US founded on rational principles like equality of all under God.
4. Vision-Logic Consciousness - Can see many perspectives (both intellectually & emotionally), global interest for all.
5. Psychic/Spirit Consciousness - Fears conquered for love - more inner directed & in tune with intuitive abilities and with others.
6. Dark night of the senses - We see our imperfections "bursts our egotistical bubble"
7. Dark Night/Confronting Shadow Self - Confronting "feelings buried alive"
8. Resurrection of the Dark Night...Subtle Conscience
9. Christ Consciousness, Nondual Consciousness - Spiritual union with God, Our Creators
I'm less clear about the last half.
Last edited by SuperSoul; 01-18-2012 at 10:44 AM..
I thought atheists were more concerned with extreme fundamental theists.
I know you did, and I corrected you. Many atheists have an issue with one thing and one thing only. Unsubstantiated Claims. It is not required that the people espousing said claims be extreme or fundamentalist.
I often use this analogy:
Imagine you are working in politics and a guy walks in espousing all new policy and law ideas. His basis for these ideas is a page of statistics.
He however refuses to tell you where the stats come from, how he knows they are valid, and even gets offended and angry when you dare ask him to, saying things like "I have a right to my statistics" and "I have faith in my statistics".
You are not likely to take him too seriously, let alone implement his policy ideas. Yet that is what we do with "god" based ideas. We lend them credence, give them time in our halls of power and sometimes even implement them.
That is to be resisted. In our halls of science, education, politics and power we should be wary of and even resist unsubstantiated ideas and claims.
If you follow the belief that humanity disobeyed in the Garden, then no - humanity was not created "perfect" - for perfection precludes the possibility of imperfection. Unless one posits that disobedience to God's Will is part of "perfection", then we are stuck with the conclusion that humanity was created as flawed as we still are today, in all our human glory - we are not gods, after all.
Dualism and absolutes - gotta love 'em!
Do you agree?
Just another nail in the coffin in the mindless belief in evidence less,, counter-rational dieties.
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