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Sometimes our 'feelings' are not great indicators to the truth. Personal bias and beliefs can get in the way and cause emotional disturbances which promote the bending of what is into something it isn't.
feelings are precisely how we detect and verify truth and authenticity
if a person relies solely on intellect and ideas, their perceptions and their life experience are skewed and incomplete and distorted; also their relationships are sterile and limited. It is the difference between reading about the idea of love, knowing the definition of love....and feeling love, feeling loved.
it is precisely our gut feel, our intuition, that is the most reliable compass we have
the way to "spirit" is through the heart not through the head; my experience has been feelings of peace, comfort, silence, well-being and a vast, vast feeling of being loved
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 06-18-2015 at 09:19 PM..
feelings are precisely how we detect and verify truth and authenticity
if a person relies solely on intellect and ideas, their perceptions and their life experience are skewed and incomplete and distorted; also their relationships are sterile and limited. It is the difference between reading about the idea of love, knowing the definition of love....and feeling love, feeling loved.
it is precisely our gut feel, our intuition, that is the most reliable compass we have
the way to "spirit" is through the heart not through the head; my experience has been feelings of peace, comfort, silence, well-being and a vast, vast feeling of being loved
This is provably incorrect Tzap.
Take for example a typical cult. It is the emotions which the adherents go by and also which hook people in.
Personal bias is most influenced by emotional need and if those being tempted by such would only use their intelligence they would have far better chance of seeing through the deceptions which hook people into mostly superstitious beliefs and from then on it is just a matter of cementing those beliefs into focusing upon false things in which they - through their emotional needs - want to believe are true.
I understand that there is a necessity for emotion but draw the line at it being the sole source of discernment. The intellect cannot be neglected or ignored in favor of 'the heart' (emotion alone).
One favored cultist practice is to make the potential adherent believe that only evil can be expected from the intellect.
Another equally valid way to look at it is to notice how mothers spin fairy tales to their young. Much is dependent upon the child believing in those stories through their emotions.
Emotions which are used to form beliefs allow for others to manipulate individuals through their emotions and telling them they cannot trust also in their intellect is simply untruthful. Deceptive.
It is highly improbable that most people thus snared will be able to employ their intelligence to question the validity of their own beliefs. Anyone who cannot do so, is suspect and should not be regarded as a trustworthy source of truthful guidance...
This goes not only for religious or spiritual matters, but political and cultural ones as well. Too often human beings have followed this emotionally driven path to their own detriment.
the topic of the thread is "feelings of experiencing the divine"
when i say let emotions be our guide in matters of the spirit it is in thus way:
loving kindness, peace = god
hate, violence, anger, discord, disturbance, terror = not god
so if the "god" someone experiences tells them to rob a bank or stab someone or hate an entire group of people, chances are it is not a divine encounter
the shorthand "god is love" is simple and true; anything else is an obstacle to god
it is also our compass for healthy personal relationships as well....does this person fill me with a sense of peace, safety, kindness, comfort, trust, do they have my best interests at heart
as above so below
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 06-18-2015 at 11:20 PM..
the topic of the thread is "feelings of experiencing the divine"
when i say let emotions be our guide in matters of the spirit it is in thus way:
Yes it is. That is why I said this:
Sometimes our 'feelings' are not great indicators to the truth. Personal bias and beliefs can get in the way and cause emotional disturbances which promote the bending of what is into something it isn't.
Quote:
loving kindness, peace = god
hate, violence, anger, discord, disturbance, terror = not god
All emotionally driven. Feelings are the force behind all of these 'god or not god'.
Quote:
so if the "god" someone experiences tells them to rob a bank or stab someone or hate an entire group of people, chances are it is not a divine encounter
Likely feelings where the motivational force behind the choices.
Quote:
the shorthand "god is love" is simple and true; anything else is an obstacle to god
Love is not just an emotional thing.
Quote:
it is also our compass for healthy personal relationships as well....does this person fill me with a sense of peace, safety, kindness, comfort, trust, do they have my best interests at heart
Again, this is also how cults leaders are exalted. Emotional need by the adherents. It is not proven mechanism in which to discern correctly.
(Same with politics and culture.)
The mistake really is that one is placing their trust etc in external personalities.
If your understanding of 'god' is an external one, it has come from the proclamations of the external and accepted through emotional need.
Question such beliefs rather than simply place them on others as a demanded indication for 'authenticity' (such as what you attempted to do here with me)
the topic of the thread is "feelings of experiencing the divine"
when i say let emotions be our guide in matters of the spirit it is in thus way:
loving kindness, peace = god
hate, violence, anger, discord, disturbance, terror = not god
so if the "god" someone experiences tells them to rob a bank or stab someone or hate an entire group of people, chances are it is not a divine encounter
the shorthand "god is love" is simple and true; anything else is an obstacle to god
it is also our compass for healthy personal relationships as well....does this person fill me with a sense of peace, safety, kindness, comfort, trust, do they have my best interests at heart
as above so below
Well said. It is always a filtered feeling that MUST be compatible with the Spirit of agape love (who IS God). As with everything . . . we have positive and negative drives within that must be carefully monitored.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotagivan
Sometimes our 'feelings' are not great indicators to the truth. Personal bias and beliefs can get in the way and cause emotional disturbances which promote the bending of what is into something it isn't.
This is true of everything . . . that would be why Tzaph explained the filter or test of the Spirit that MUST be applied. This potential for ambiguity in no way invalidates the source. It simply requires active filtering.
Quote:
All emotionally driven. Feelings are the force behind all of these 'god or not god'.
Likely feelings where the motivational force behind the choices.
Love is not just an emotional thing.
Again, this is also how cults leaders are exalted. Emotional need by the adherents. It is not proven mechanism in which to discern correctly.
(Same with politics and culture.)
The mistake really is that one is placing their trust etc in external personalities.
If your understanding of 'god' is an external one, it has come from the proclamations of the external and accepted through emotional need.
Question such beliefs rather than simply place them on others as a demanded indication for 'authenticity' (such as what you attempted to do with me)
So you believe.
Whatever your issues are with cults and what not . . . they have nothing to do with a disciplined use of the right brain sources of information about reality. Properly vetted they are usually an untapped source of valuable understanding of reality.
This is true of everything . . . that would be why Tzaph explained the filter or test of the Spirit that MUST be applied. This potential for ambiguity in no way invalidates the source.
And as I explained, to filter using only feelings is not a good way of doing things. It depends largely on what the personality thinks it needs and is too emotionally based. How did you miss that?
Quote:
It simply requires active filtering. Whatever your issues are with cults and what not . . . they have nothing to do with a disciplined use of the right brain sources of information about reality. Properly vetted they are usually an untapped source of valuable understanding of reality.
Another thing I look for when interacting with others - especially in relation to internet forums where we are invisible to one another etc is how they might argue something I have said. If they take a part of what I have said out of context (as you have done in relation to my mentioning cults) and use this part to make their argument, I find that to be an indication that the personality is not being overly honest in their response.
In you implying I have 'issues with cults and what not' but ignoring the valid points I make in regard to WHY I have issues with such (which had to do with how humans lean far too much in trusting their feelings in relation to their choices) your reply is not a relevant answer to my statements about this.
Also you have overlooked that I do not claim what you refer to as 'right brain' activity to be invalid. I say that it is far better to use the 'whole brain'.
See?
Sometimes our 'feelings' are not great indicators to the truth. Personal bias and beliefs can get in the way and cause emotional disturbances which promote the bending of what is into something it isn't.
I understand that there is a necessity for emotion but draw the line at it being the sole source of discernment. The intellect cannot be neglected or ignored in favor of 'the heart' (emotion alone).
Be that as it may...while drowning when a youngster, I felt a sense of semi-grateful resignation - with gusts up to relief - when I realized I was in the process of dying at 10 years of age. The experience left me with many lasting impressions, not the least of which is that feelings can register as truth as much as verifiable evidence.
And I feel no obligation to prove it.
Be that as it may, my argument isn't to leave feelings out of the process, but not to rely solely upon them in relation to discernment because feeling alone will not prevent one from making incorrect decisions as they are often filtered by persona want and belief bias.
In relation to the OP 'feeling the presence of 'direct' experience' implies there is an absence of presence because one cannot 'feel' any presence.
Well said. It is always a filtered feeling that MUST be compatible with the Spirit of agape love (who IS God). As with everything . . . we have positive and negative drives within that must be carefully monitored.
This is true of everything . . . that would be why Tzaph explained the filter or test of the Spirit that MUST be applied. This potential for ambiguity in no way invalidates the source. It simply requires active filtering. Whatever your issues are with cults and what not . . . they have nothing to do with a disciplined use of the right brain sources of information about reality. Properly vetted they are usually an untapped source of valuable understanding of reality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotagivan
And as I explained, to filter using only feelings is not a good way of doing things. It depends largely on what the personality thinks it needs and is too emotionally based. How did you miss that?
Another thing I look for when interacting with others - especially in relation to internet forums where we are invisible to one another etc is how they might argue something I have said. If they take a part of what I have said out of context (as you have done in relation to my mentioning cults) and use this part to make their argument, I find that to be an indication that the personality is not being overly honest in their response.
In you implying I have 'issues with cults and what not' but ignoring the valid points I make in regard to WHY I have issues with such (which had to do with how humans lean far too much in trusting their feelings in relation to their choices) your reply is not a relevant answer to my statements about this.
Also you have overlooked that I do not claim what you refer to as 'right brain' activity to be invalid. I say that it is far better to use the 'whole brain'.
See? Sometimes our 'feelings' are not great indicators to the truth. Personal bias and beliefs can get in the way and cause emotional disturbances which promote the bending of what is into something it isn't. I understand that there is a necessity for emotion but draw the line at it being the sole source of discernment. The intellect cannot be neglected or ignored in favor of 'the heart' (emotion alone).
See?
You are arguing against a strawman because cults and what not are combinations of both whacko left brain ideas and feelings. No one here was advocating using ONLY right brain information. The point was that it is too often disregarded inappropriately because of left brain biases. There is a discipline necessary to properly understand right brain information that is simply NOT developed in the West. They focus entirely on left brain disciplines of language and mathematics to understand reality.
You are arguing against a strawman because cults and what not are combinations of both whacko left brain ideas and feelings. No one here was advocating using ONLY right brain information. The point was that it is too often disregarded inappropriately because of left brain biases. There is a discipline necessary to properly understand right brain information that is simply NOT developed in the West. They focus entirely on left brain disciplines of language and mathematics to understand reality.
Why don't you just say 'okay I understand you Rotaman - sorry for the misunderstanding.'
As a former Christian, I experienced a lot of what fundamental Christianity would call "moving of the spirit". I've witnessed people falling out on the floor with eyes rolling back in their heads, spinning around on one foot for hours and lots of speaking in tongues.
Now, I see it as all theatrics, hype and "want to" type experiences, that's all. Sorry, but I never saw anything "miraculous", just a bunch of people very anxious to experience something so they made it up. These church services can be very lively and it's easy to get caught up in the hype.
The reason you don't "feel" anything is because there's nothing there to feel. I never did either, and I tried. But you say "what about all these miraculous healings?"......well.....we know for a fact that they've been proven false time and again, just actors and actresses playing a part. Makes people dig deeper into their pockets and fatten the wallets of these so-called miracle healers.
Maybe I'm a little jaded, I don't know but I've experienced what you seem to be looking for and I'm here to tell you that it's all fake. At least you've got enough sense to know what's real and what isn't.
It is indeed fake. All these so called "spiritual experiences" are brain based phenomenon. If there was a unifying theme and experience among ALL people who have these so called experiences, there might be some reason to think that "one supernatural" force / entity explains them. They are like near death experiences where your religious background plays a part in what imagery you see when you are having these near death experiences and images. Muslims will see Mohammed, Christians will see Jesus, etc.
Last edited by Texan2008; 06-19-2015 at 04:48 PM..
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