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Old 04-01-2012, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 12,917,890 times
Reputation: 3767

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A quick review of the Scientific Method (hereby referred to as the SM) provides these Key Elements:

1) The clear statement of an hypothesis: (The initial but well-reasoned (though as yet unproven) idea or concept. I.e.: What exactly is being rationally questioned.)

2) a statement of the Methods and Materials that will be used, so that anyone who wishes to verify the study can do so, possibly with improvements.

3) A careful statement of the Results thus achieved; full documentation, records and lists of any and all outcomes related to the study.

4) A discussion of those results, with whatever deductions and conclusions are reasonable, conservative but fully supported by the results. If such results and conclusions are either statistically limited, or if the research results are inconclusive, this is also where possible improvements are noted. Limitations are thus clearly stated as well.

5) Final Summary Statement. This is where some conjecture may be allowed, where the results of the current study are compared to, perhaps, previous studies, done with possibly outdated equipment, or with earlier less accurate measurement techniques, or where some other related study has illuminated the problem under review, but with improved clarity.

In any case, correctly done research always improves our overall and detailed understandings. In some cases, research may only clarify the degree of unknowns, but this information is then useful in any subsequent research.

----------------------------------------------.

This process, it's Key Elements and it's reliability have proven the SM's usefulness and validity for well over 150 years. Many millions of studies have shown the way to constant improvements in our greater understanding of the world we live in. Most everyone with a rational mind agrees with this approach, allowing that such a process has improved fuel economy of our personal passenger cars, from the early wick-type prototype carburetors in Model Ts to the latest multi-valve, turbo-charged, direct-injection engines of today. Who wants to argue with that success, pray tell? No-one, except those oddball nutz who claim they have found a way to burn water in their gasoline engines, with an array of lined-up magnets added in, thus ensuring 250 mpg with no emissions! Have Faith, my children!

But then come the reproducible studies that validate the scientist's and atheist's understandings of the world around us, from Evolution (DNA genome mapping, for instance), or geological column evaluations and theory, or our astrological & physics studies that have also allowed us to accurately land, first, the lunar modules, and most recently, that spectacular Mars Rover device. Suddenly, those studies are all "purely subjective", obviously biased lies and fantasies, and in direct contradiction with the obvious facts the bible is so full of...

Riiiigghhhtttt.......
__________________________________

So now comes the Primary OP Question: Given an accurate statement of the methods and materials that were required, why is it that devout fundy Christians NEVER participate in re-creating these studies to validate the results for themselves?

Even if they do not possess of the necessary logical mindset to duplicate the research without any inherent Christian biases, they could certainly find someone in their various organizations, or at an independent research organization, that could duplicate the study with some level of honesty! Trouble is, obviously, this would likely provide the same results we use to deny, say, the earnest YEC's wet-dream of a young earth, or to prove some radical revisionist geology or impossible hydrological sources, or some imaginary "stable & completed" Universe, and so on. OMG!

Why do they so actively resist such obvious endeavors, which could, according to their distrust of our research, potentially disrupt the naturalist's or atheist's proof-based chain of thoughts?

So...go ahead: disprove it all! It's ultimate logic and thoroughness is exactly how The SM remains inviolate in it's demonstrable reliability, so why not use it? Otherwise, so far, those results will remain unchallenged! As an alternate to this relentless march of unchallenged and evolving facts, why don't complaining Christians just prove us wrong with our own very reliable methods??

Why not? Pray tell?
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Old 04-02-2012, 01:49 AM
 
12,595 posts, read 6,651,631 times
Reputation: 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
A quick review of the Scientific Method (hereby referred to as the SM) provides these Key Elements:

1) The clear statement of an hypothesis: (The initial but well-reasoned (though as yet unproven) idea or concept. I.e.: What exactly is being rationally questioned.)

2) a statement of the Methods and Materials that will be used, so that anyone who wishes to verify the study can do so, possibly with improvements.

3) A careful statement of the Results thus achieved; full documentation, records and lists of any and all outcomes related to the study.

4) A discussion of those results, with whatever deductions and conclusions are reasonable, conservative but fully supported by the results. If such results and conclusions are either statistically limited, or if the research results are inconclusive, this is also where possible improvements are noted. Limitations are thus clearly stated as well.

5) Final Summary Statement. This is where some conjecture may be allowed, where the results of the current study are compared to, perhaps, previous studies, done with possibly outdated equipment, or with earlier less accurate measurement techniques, or where some other related study has illuminated the problem under review, but with improved clarity.

In any case, correctly done research always improves our overall and detailed understandings. In some cases, research may only clarify the degree of unknowns, but this information is then useful in any subsequent research.

----------------------------------------------.

This process, it's Key Elements and it's reliability have proven the SM's usefulness and validity for well over 150 years. Many millions of studies have shown the way to constant improvements in our greater understanding of the world we live in. Most everyone with a rational mind agrees with this approach, allowing that such a process has improved fuel economy of our personal passenger cars, from the early wick-type prototype carburetors in Model Ts to the latest multi-valve, turbo-charged, direct-injection engines of today. Who wants to argue with that success, pray tell? No-one, except those oddball nutz who claim they have found a way to burn water in their gasoline engines, with an array of lined-up magnets added in, thus ensuring 250 mpg with no emissions! Have Faith, my children!

But then come the reproducible studies that validate the scientist's and atheist's understandings of the world around us, from Evolution (DNA genome mapping, for instance), or geological column evaluations and theory, or our astrological & physics studies that have also allowed us to accurately land, first, the lunar modules, and most recently, that spectacular Mars Rover device. Suddenly, those studies are all "purely subjective", obviously biased lies and fantasies, and in direct contradiction with the obvious facts the bible is so full of...

Riiiigghhhtttt.......
__________________________________

So now comes the Primary OP Question: Given an accurate statement of the methods and materials that were required, why is it that devout fundy Christians NEVER participate in re-creating these studies to validate the results for themselves?

Even if they do not possess of the necessary logical mindset to duplicate the research without any inherent Christian biases, they could certainly find someone in their various organizations, or at an independent research organization, that could duplicate the study with some level of honesty! Trouble is, obviously, this would likely provide the same results we use to deny, say, the earnest YEC's wet-dream of a young earth, or to prove some radical revisionist geology or impossible hydrological sources, or some imaginary "stable & completed" Universe, and so on. OMG!

Why do they so actively resist such obvious endeavors, which could, according to their distrust of our research, potentially disrupt the naturalist's or atheist's proof-based chain of thoughts?

So...go ahead: disprove it all! It's ultimate logic and thoroughness is exactly how The SM remains inviolate in it's demonstrable reliability, so why not use it? Otherwise, so far, those results will remain unchallenged! As an alternate to this relentless march of unchallenged and evolving facts, why don't complaining Christians just prove us wrong with our own very reliable methods??

Why not? Pray tell?
Here's where you're messin' up rifle.

By trying to put forth some kind of a "challenge" to people who determine/endorse/sanction something based on their religious belief, to test the validity of those beliefs/concepts with the scrutiny of the Scientific Method...you seem to be completely forgetting that THEY DON'T CARE about if it is "scientifically verifiable" or not.

And this seems to be the biggest problem with the Atheists on this board...and many Atheists I see here and there: They get aaaaaaall bolloxed up that they know many of the things that are believed by the religious could not possibly be true and factual, and that they can prove that through the various methods/tests/procedures they can pull out of their Scientists Toolbox. But the Fundies still just go, "Pfffffffttttttt...you're just influenced by the Devil not to be able to know what we know".

So where does that leave you? Sooooooo frustrated it gets your blood pressure skyrocketing, thats where!

Look, dig this...so you get an idea what I mean: People know that its been completely, no question about it, absolutely, ab-so-lute-ly proven, that smoking cigarettes is almost sure to cause you physical problems, some so bad that they can even lead to suffering a slow horrible death---But that doesn't stop hundreds of millions from smoking, now does it?!!

People wanna do what they wanna do---and there is NOTHING you are gonna do to stop them.
People wanna believe what they wanna believe---and there is NOTHING you are gonna do to change their mind.
MOF, as you know, I won't even engage in a debate with people that claim that Evolutionary Theory is bogus. I tried it a couple of times: It was just a zero-sum-gain study in aggravation and futility, and got me no where.
I learned really quick...so I dumped that load. Funny thing is...as smart as most of you scientist people are...you can't seem to get hip to that. What's up with that?

Remember my "It's like spitting into a strong wind" warning? Well, yer doin it again my friend!
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Old 04-02-2012, 02:10 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 12,917,890 times
Reputation: 3767
Default Not what it seems on the surface, Pal!

Oh I agree with you, Gldn! The typical response is indeed unimaginably hard-headed and stubborn, the theist philosophy being essentially unwilling to consider any alternative perspectives, no matter hoe logical or "evidenced"!

And for a while, I thought better of continuing my "pointless pursuit" of the raggedy-headed types. But truth be known, it also serves as a constant demonstration to those who just might be on the fence about converting to the Reality Based "Religion" of Atheism, and who might also see, in gruesome detail, the awesome illiteracy and stubbornness of the typical intransigent.

We have had a couple of them successfully convert, after all! That's all I need to reward my efforts!

And so, I see it as an ongoing educational process, with no real hope or intent for changing the minds of the true lead-headed and immovable fundies here. They are indeed serving their purpose, but just don't realize it!

I think a lot of them are laughing at our continued efforts, since they actually and simplistically think it's they who win these various debate battles by purposefully annoying and baiting us!

And if they do bother to actually answer my challenge above by denying all that the SM so obviously is, then all the more convincing their archaic mindset is to an objective observer!

So the fact is, they're just serving a purpose FOR actively advancing atheism that other more reasonable and thoughtful types cannot!
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Old 04-02-2012, 02:30 AM
 
12,595 posts, read 6,651,631 times
Reputation: 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Oh I agree with you, Gldn! And for a while, I thought better of continuing my "pointless pursuit" of the raggedy-headed types. But truth be known, it also serves as a constant demonstration to those who just might be on the fence about converting to the Reality Based "Religion" of Atheism, and who see, in gruesome detail, the awesome illiteracy and stubbornness of the typical intransigent.

We have had a couple of them successfully convert, after all! That's all I need to continue my efforts!

And so, I see it as an ongoing educational process, with no real hope or intent for changing the minds of the true lead-headed and immovable fundies here. They are serving their purpose, but just don't realize it: I think a lot of them are laughing at our continued efforts, since they actually and simplistically think it's they who win these various debate battles by purposefully annoying and bating us!

They're just serving a purpose FOR actively advancing atheism that other more reasonable and thoughtful types cannot!
I "get it" now.
Just don't let it get to you. Keep it in perspective.

That "ongoing educational process" is the derivative benefit...look at all you've taught guys like me. Some of the stuff you, and those like you, have put up have been really good "short-courses" on a bunch of interesting subjects. Most of it very understandable and easily absorbed by us laymen. There were many times I said to myself after reading, "Damn, I just learned a lot".
So, no matter what, all was never lost.
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Old 04-02-2012, 10:46 AM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,138 posts, read 22,815,703 times
Reputation: 14116
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
So...go ahead: disprove it all! It's ultimate logic and thoroughness is exactly how The SM remains inviolate in it's demonstrable reliability, so why not use it? Otherwise, so far, those results will remain unchallenged! As an alternate to this relentless march of unchallenged and evolving facts, why don't complaining Christians just prove us wrong with our own very reliable methods??

Why not? Pray tell?
The Scientific Method is probably the best tool we have in our toolbox for identifying reality vs unreality, but it's still just a tool of progression and not an end-all.

It's important to understand that since the SM is a tool, it may be worthless for certain jobs and also limit our possibilities if we choose to remain totally boxed within the limits of the SM. In fact, we are already bumping against the limits of the SM and can demonstrably see there actually is important stuff past that line... just look a Quantum Mechanics, for example.

That's not to say we just throw all the fruits of the SM away of course, and it's important to remember that a mind that is TOO open is just as bad as one that's too closed.

I don't know what it is, (though I do know what it isn't ) but we will soon need something beyond traditional science to continue progression as a species.
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