Pascal's Wager: Struggling with my religion (soul, grace, Isaiah, priest)
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Why don't you edit it correctly? It would be easier for others to respond to you if you did.
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Pure SPECULATION.
OK! Lets play your game.
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Originally Posted by tigers84
1) Life cannot spring from non-life. - or at least no scientist has ever proven it. No matter how many billions of years or "rich" the primordial ooze. Some one/entity likley got things started.
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Pure SPECULATION.
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And how did THAT foreign life come about elsewhere in the cosmos?
I don't know. I'm just pointing out that your purely speculative comment that "Some one/entity likely got things started" is not a foregone conclusion. There are other options.
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Regardless of where IT may have come from, life doesnt spring spontaneously from non-life.
Pure SPECULATION.
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The Big Bang had a BEGINNING.
Yes but that does not exclude the possibility that there was a universe, in some form or other, before BB.
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Therefore there was a time when it did not exist.
Yes, there was a time when the universe did not exist in it's PRESENT form but that does not discount the possibility that the universe was there in some other shape or form. Can you show any evidence that would indicate that before BB, there was nothing there? How do you know that there has not been a continuous formation and destruction of the universe, each universe being different from the last?
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As far as existing in a "different form"? Sure, why not. You clearly have a better imagination that I do.
Oh I don't know. I can't imagine talking snakes and global floods...unlike you perhaps?
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Always? Meaning what exactly?
Meaning 'always'. What part of 'always' are you having difficulty with?? Do you have a problem understanding the theist cry of 'God has always been there'??
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You can no more prove that than I can disprove it.
I'm not trying to prove it. I'm just pointing out that the 'creation' of the universe by some one/entity is not the only option. There is the option that there has ALWAYS been a universe....again, in some form or other. There is the option that the universe was created by aliens from the planet Zargo. There is the option that the universe was created by pink fairies sprinkling magic fairy dust....do you understand what I'm saying here? There is more than one option.
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"Different Life"? Again, pure SPECULATION. Life based on something besides carbon is far out there. Do you also advocate space aliens and giant worms?
It's not speculation at all! We can see it everywhere. Animals will adapt to changing environments providing the change is not too rapid. So let's say that the Earth was 5,000,000 miles further away from the Sun. It does not mean that life forms would not have taken hold here. It just means that any life forms that DID take hold would be more able to sustain cold temperatures than the present inhabitants of the planet. The life forms here now would be very different. There would doubtless be no 'humans' as we know them.
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Again and Again. It just makes too much sense.
Only if you don't understand what the 2nd Law is saying and rely on 'Answer in Genesis' to explain it to you.
Yes, nature creates wonderful waterfalls, beautiful landscapes and even natural bridges out of rock.
In short, the Grand Canyon, sure. But Mount Rushmore, no.
Right, we know of no natural forces that could result in the formation of Mt. Rushmore. But, we do know of natural forces that could result in the origin of different species.
Now, at this moment we don't know how natural forces formed the first living eukaryotic cell, but we do know using the construct of god as an explanation creates more problems than it solves: //www.city-data.com/forum/relig...uses-more.html
This is because god is not an explanation until you tell us how god did it. You expect to know how natural forces did it before you will acknowledge the phenomenon has been explained so, we need to know how god did it before we can say a phenomenon has been explained.
Saying "god did it" and not tell us how, is no different than saying "gremlins did it". Both are pointless and baseless claims that don't get us anyway in increasing our understanding or in solving the real riddle of how the thing came about.
Why don't you edit it correctly? It would be easier for others to respond to you if you did.
OK! Lets play your game.
Pure SPECULATION.
I don't know. I'm just pointing out that your purely speculative comment that "Some one/entity likely got things started" is not a foregone conclusion. There are other options.
Pure SPECULATION.
Yes but that does not exclude the possibility that there was a universe, in some form or other, before BB.
Yes, there was a time when the universe did not exist in it's PRESENT form but that does not discount the possibility that the universe was there in some other shape or form. Can you show any evidence that would indicate that before BB, there was nothing there? How do you know that there has not been a continuous formation and destruction of the universe, each universe being different from the last?
Oh I don't know. I can't imagine talking snakes and global floods...unlike you perhaps?
Meaning 'always'. What part of 'always' are you having difficulty with?? Do you have a problem understanding the theist cry of 'God has always been there'??
I'm not trying to prove it. I'm just pointing out that the 'creation' of the universe by some one/entity is not the only option. There is the option that there has ALWAYS been a universe....again, in some form or other. There is the option that the universe was created by aliens from the planet Zargo. There is the option that the universe was created by pink fairies sprinkling magic fairy dust....do you understand what I'm saying here? There is more than one option.
It's not speculation at all! We can see it everywhere. Animals will adapt to changing environments providing the change is not too rapid. So let's say that the Earth was 5,000,000 miles further away from the Sun. It does not mean that life forms would not have taken hold here. It just means that any life forms that DID take hold would be more able to sustain cold temperatures than the present inhabitants of the planet. The life forms here now would be very different. There would doubtless be no 'humans' as we know them.
Only if you don't understand what the 2nd Law is saying and rely on Answer in Genesis to explain it to you.
You seem fairly angry. No need for that.
Look, there are plenty of reasons not to believe in God. Obviously. I was once a non-believer myself. But there are also reasons to believe. Its really a personal choice.
Mocking or deriding those who do believe doesnt advance your argument. As long as a believer isnt judging you Im not sure why you feel the need to attack them.
There are other planets in our SS. No signs of life on any of them.
I agree, God is not a foregone conclusion. Oh, that it were so easy It actually takes work. I know this because Ive done it.
There are endless "what if" possibilities. If not God then...xyz....A pointless exercise.
Who said anything about snakes and floods? Not me. One doesnt have to take everything at face value.
All that exists, seen and unseen, does not have to be. There could just as easily be nothing, in the most absolute sense. But instead there is a huge universe, full of consistent physical laws and at least some living creatures.
While humanity might not have the details exactly right, without a higher being the world doesnt have to be nearly as "friendly" to us at it is. The fact that globes circles their suns with regularity all around the universe is kind of an amazing thing in itself. Why do planets even have to form? They dont. If they didnt life would be virtually impossible, here or elsewhere. The fact that our planet has engaged in a life giving/preserving rotation around a gasesous globe millions of miles away, and has done so for at least thousands of years, is truly amazing, and suggests there is more to our existence than just happenstance.
Obviously God is not always the answer when the unexplainable occurs. Far from it. But, there are no truly viable explanations about where/how Life originated. To me abiogenesis is at least as far fetched as the existence of God (Complex life as pure accident?) As well, how the universe is so incredibly finetuned (seemingly) just for us. Or how the complexity of DNA came about with pure "random" programming.
Well, I provided a brief description with links of some of the current evidence for the origin of life on earth. It's sort of like a crime scene investigation. We have many pieces of the puzzle but many other pieces are still missing. As more time goes by, we find more and more missing pieces. However, we already have a pretty good idea of where the evidence is leading.
I find a natural explanation for the origins of life much more compelling than a supernatural explanation. Your mileage may vary.
This article shows that adenine and guanine - two of four neucleobases that make up DNA - have been found in meteorites:
Well, I provided a brief description with links of some of the current evidence for the origin of life on earth. It's sort of like a crime scene investigation. We have many pieces of the puzzle but many other pieces are still missing. As more time goes by, we find more and more missing pieces. However, we already have a pretty good idea of where the evidence is leading.
I find a natural explanation for the origins of life much more compelling than a supernatural explanation. Your mileage may vary.
This article shows that adenine and guanine - two of four neucleobases that make up DNA - have been found in meteorites:
Does it thrill you to "know" that our lives have no purpose or meaning? That once its over its over, for eternity? That there is no karma, so to speak, so mass murdering baby killers share the same ultimate fate as Mother Theresa? That with every celebration of a new born that is just one more soulless bundle of nerve endings and chemicals that will eventually die a meaningless death like everyone that has gone before? Does it give you solace and comfort, knowing that we are really no different than a scuttling crab or roach, just with a bigger brain? Does you find comfort in that hedonism shouild be everyone's lifetime philopsophy, as there is no chance of anything thereafter? Do you revel in the utter emptiness of a godless existence, knowing that only the horror of nothingness awaits?
When humans do prove, with absolute certainty, that there is no god, do you think the world will rejoice and be better off? I dont think it will.
Right, we know of no natural forces that could result in the formation of Mt. Rushmore. But, we do know of natural forces that could result in the origin of different species.
Now, at this moment we don't know how natural forces formed the first living eukaryotic cell, but we do know using the construct of god as an explanation creates more problems than it solves: //www.city-data.com/forum/relig...uses-more.html
This is because god is not an explanation until you tell us how god did it. You expect to know how natural forces did it before you will acknowledge the phenomenon has been explained so, we need to know how god did it before we can say a phenomenon has been explained.
Saying "god did it" and not tell us how, is no different than saying "gremlins did it". Both are pointless and baseless claims that don't get us anyway in increasing our understanding or in solving the real riddle of how the thing came about.
Mmmmmm. Do we really think natural forces could create the complex systems that uinderlie all complex life forms today, and do it just by accident, selection and randomness? That through accident an amoeba turns into an elephant? Do we see amoebas changing into other critters currently?
Whoever pretends to know god's means, methods, etc is surely a charlatan. I dont get quantum physics either.
Big difference between a gremlin and God. I doubt we will ever "know" how all this came about. The riddle will not be solved until the next phase of our existence, whatever that looks like.
I don't need to think of god/meaning/reason because I don't want to admit that I am a pointless little bunch of protoplasm among many, and that our planet is one of BILLIONS and so far apart that we cannot even conceive of it.
I think one reason people try to find "a reason" is that our animal brains have evolved into an abstraction machine. We perform abstractions, and think of all sorts of things, without which, we would still survive. Religion, art, music, literature, politics... abstractions. We are apparently the only beings on this planet that can contemplate ourselves, hence, a lot of abstractions.
I do think religion all evolved from people's fear of death and wish to see some sort of order in things that hurt, like droughts, illness, volcanoes, etc. I have always wondered how many times you can do the rain dance and not get rain and still think that's the way to go.
Does it thrill you to "know" that our lives have no purpose or meaning? That once its over its over, for eternity? That there is no karma, so to speak, so mass murdering baby killers share the same ultimate fate as Mother Theresa? That with every celebration of a new born that is just one more soulless bundle of nerve endings and chemicals that will eventually die a meaningless death like everyone that has gone before? Does it give you solace and comfort, knowing that we are really no different than a scuttling crab or roach, just with a bigger brain? Does you find comfort in that hedonism shouild be everyone's lifetime philopsophy, as there is no chance of anything thereafter? Do you revel in the utter emptiness of a godless existence, knowing that only the horror of nothingness awaits?
When humans do prove, with absolute certainty, that there is no god, do you think the world will rejoice and be better off? I dont think it will.
It does thrill me, give me comfort, nor do I revel in it. But, what difference does that make? If it is true, it is true, regardless of whether it thrills me or not. I am interested in what is true. A proposition's thrillness factor has not been shown to be a good indicator of its truthfulness.
I don't need to think of god/meaning/reason because I don't want to admit that I am a pointless little bunch of protoplasm among many, and that our planet is one of BILLIONS and so far apart that we cannot even conceive of it.
I think one reason people try to find "a reason" is that our animal brains have evolved into an abstraction machine. We perform abstractions, and think of all sorts of things, without which, we would still survive. Religion, art, music, literature, politics... abstractions. We are apparently the only beings on this planet that can contemplate ourselves, hence, a lot of abstractions.
I do think religion all evolved from people's fear of death and wish to see some sort of order in things that hurt, like droughts, illness, volcanoes, etc. I have always wondered how many times you can do the rain dance and not get rain and still think that's the way to go.
Our planet is one of billions, maybe, but even so it is definitely VERY special. Even atheists should agree with that.
One argument for the specialness of humans is that indeed we are the ONLY species that can contemplate its existence and create art, literature, etc. We are MILES and MILES ahead of our nearest "competitor". Any idea why there are no other animals species with consciousness? Why did they stop evolving and we didnt? Is there any reason a lion couldnt learn to talk, in theory?
Atheists love this line of reasoning, thats its all made up by theists to make ourselves feel better. Well, thats possible. But there is also a lot of stuff out there that suggests there is at least some elements of truth, which is why even an atheist cant be 100% certain of their position.
It does thrill me, give me comfort, nor do I revel in it. But, what difference does that make? If it is true, it is true, regardless of whether it thrills me or not. I am interested in what is true. A proposition's thrillness factor has not been shown to be a good indicator of its truthfulness.
But you dont KNOW its true. You choose to believe its true.
Life is long. If there is nothing at the end doesnt it seem reasonable to believe otherwise until that time? At least you led a life soothed by the idea. When nothingness results, it wont matter, there will be no regrets, because you wont have consiousness anyway.
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