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I googled this and realised I had forgotten the time candle for night time measurements.
The current sexagesimal system of time measurement dates to approximately 2000 BC, in Sumer.
The Ancient Egyptians divided the day into two 12-hour periods, and used large obelisks to track the movement of the Sun.
They also developed water clocks, which were probably first used in the Precinct of Amun-Re, and later outside Egypt as well; they were employed frequently by the Ancient Greeks, who called them clepsydrae.
So we must assume that keeping time was indeed possible back then but probably restricted to a central town clock of sorts.
The earliest known clock with a water-powered escapement mechanism, which transferred rotational energy into intermittent motions, dates back to 3rd century BC ancient Greece; Chinese engineers later invented clocks incorporating mercury-powered escapement mechanisms in the 10th century, followed by Arabic engineers inventing water clocks driven by gears and weights in the 11th century.
The damn Sumerians were ahead of the Jewish curve once again.
Water clocks, or clepsydrae, were commonly used in Ancient Greece following their introduction by Plato, who also invented a water-based alarm clock. One account of Plato's alarm clock describes it as depending on the nightly overflow of a vessel containing lead balls, which floated in a columnar vat. The vat held a steadily increasing amount of water, supplied by a cistern. By morning, the vessel would have floated high enough to tip over, causing the lead balls to cascade onto a copper platter. The resultant clangor would then awaken Plato's students at the Academy.
Another possibility is that it comprised two jars, connected by a siphon. Water emptied until it reached the siphon, which transported the water to the other jar. There, the rising water would force air through a whistle, sounding an alarm. The Greeks and Chaldeans regularly maintained timekeeping records as an essential part of their astronomical observations.
When one takes this history and overlays it on the gospels, the narrative of time does have a Greek accent.
I see the Romans did have huge sundials but the gospels were not written in Latin were they?
The influences and assimilation of cultures had to play into the narrative.
Is it mere coincidence that the sayings of jesus are found in other cultures? These parallels have not really been mainstream till recently and has struggled to get noticed and accepted. When you are competing with a 1600 year mindset, bringing new evidence to the forefront is to be met with as much resistance as possible; how can the bible be wrong?
What our friend lantern is doing is taking the flawed accounts, applying a 21st (or late 20th) century mindset and trying to make it work.
I did not own a watch when I was at junior school and way into high school too. Each class had a clock and I had an alarm clock in my bedroom that occasionally worked. A Timepiece in the 70's was an expensive and privileged piece of jewellery to own.
My dad's cars until after his Peugeot 404 had no dash clocks. All cars now have a timepiece of sorts.
Every frigging device we buy now has a clock in it. Youngsters are not privy to an era so recent that we still peered into the sky or observed our shadows to guess the time. We didn't have iPhones or iPads, we had iGuess and were pretty accurate. Every shop and building however had a clock of sorts.
I no longer wear a watch as finding out the time is pretty easy. I guess that training as a kid to mentally calculate time stuck pretty well.
That's quite ingenious. But it doesn't quite work that way. If the Sabbath was approaching that would be a Saturday, passover or not, so the crucifixion would still have to be a Friday and the 'day of preparation'. If there is a convenient date that has a Passover day falling on a Friday with the Sabbath - Saturday -following, then that might work, with the day of preparation being on Thursday since Friday was the day of the Passover Seder feast and being regarded as a 'sabbath'. And Luke could be referring to three days after the day of the crucifixion.
Does anyone know whether there would be such a sequence of dates around 30 AD? Incidentally, we don't 'know' that the Passover occurred Friday. That is your assumption to make this two - day Sabbath theory of yours work.
We can look back in time (using the precision of the stars and such) and calculate that in 33 AD, the Passover fell on a Friday. Scripture point to Jesus rising on the Sunday. So the Passover would have had to take place within the three day and three night time period. 33 AD is the only year this is possible. Also, it would have had to take place within the time Pilate was in office. (That narrows the time for this to happen to the range of 30 AD-36 AD. 33 AD is the only option)
Every frigging device we buy now has a clock in it. Youngsters are not privy to an era so recent that we still peered into the sky or observed our shadows to guess the time. We didn't have iPhones or iPads, we had iGuess and were pretty accurate.
Eeeee by 'eck lad! Not only that but ah cun remember time when tha could go t'ut cinema, buy a bag of gobstoppers on't way, buy a bag of chips on't way 'ome, stop at penny arcade forra hour an still 'ave change outta sixpence...ay an that include thas tram fare too by 'eck! Ya tell kids that today an they just don't believe ya!!
This double sabbath you are positing does not work as that is not what is recorded. The embarrassment is there that prophetically, jesus was NOT dead for 3 days.
The argument is anyway moot as the whole existence of the jesus is questionable. It is likely that there was Jewish rebel of sorts that got himself noticed and got himself crucified. Other than that, no more credence than any other ancient legend.
This is not the only discrepancy.
But even if any of this was remotely true, like everything else you try and apply logic to fails.
IF jesus was to reconcile man to god, it failed. World peace never happened even in the then world as they knew it.
IF jesus actually died for our sins, why do we have to do anything more? If he took on the punishment/wrath of god for all humanity, it is a done deal, whether we choose to believe or not.
You know I am correct in this but that model does not work as the religion requires suffrage and sucking up and tithing, hence we find most christians adopt and espouse the teachings of Paul.
There is nothing theologically consistent in the gospels and for much of the bible. Are we to follow the commandments or simple be born again? Both espoused by jesus allegedly.
Did he follow the Jewish law or didn't he? We have accounts of both where he does and where he does not.
IF the bible was the word of god, a simple reading would lead everyone to the exact same conclusion yet it does not. Why is that?
Seems only the folk that become ex christians by actually studying the bible are the ones with consistency - we all agree it is crap.
Please do not play the hs card as that is bogus too.
See the Passover itself was a Sabbath. If Jesus were to die on Passover, He would have died on the Sabbath, not the day of preparation. So most likely the preparation day would be Thursday.
and
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lantern
We can look back in time (using the precision of the stars and such) and calculate that in 33 AD, the Passover fell on a Friday. Scripture point to Jesus rising on the Sunday. So the Passover would have had to take place within the three day and three night time period. 33 AD is the only year this is possible. Also, it would have had to take place within the time Pilate was in office. (That narrows the time for this to happen to the range of 30 AD-36 AD. 33 AD is the only option)
That actually stacks up. I would really like to find a calendar that gives all the previous festival dates so I can check that, but it helps your case that there is a Friday passover (with a Saturday sabbath) in the 30 -36 AD timeframe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
...When one takes this history and overlays it on the gospels, the narrative of time does have a Greek accent.
I see the Romans did have huge sundials but the gospels were not written in Latin were they?
The influences and assimilation of cultures had to play into the narrative.
Is it mere coincidence that the sayings of jesus are found in other cultures? These parallels have not really been mainstream till recently and has struggled to get noticed and accepted. When you are competing with a 1600 year mindset, bringing new evidence to the forefront is to be met with as much resistance as possible; how can the bible be wrong?
What our friend lantern is doing is taking the flawed accounts, applying a 21st (or late 20th) century mindset and trying to make it work.
...
I agree that the Gospels were written in Greek and for greeks (that's why they needed to translate the aramaic) and probably BY greeks. That said, IF they were basing that gospel story on an actual event, then Jewish and Roman timekeeping practices would apply rather than Greek.
I think it's clear what I'm doing here. I'm seeing what works and what doesn't. Whether there is anything that stands up as a feasible (if not compelling) snippit of factuality. There is no doubt in my mind that much has been added, from OT scripture, Paul's remarks and perhaps other religions.
If we find a 33 AD Friday Passover, then that hypothesis stands up, though of course, there are objections - that the crucifixion probably wasn't a passover event at all and that the need for a 2 day interval when it doesn't read like that (as you say, Seeker) is only wanted for theological reasons. If we find out that there wasn't a Friday passover in the timeframe (I have learned never to take claims unchecked) then the whole three -day hypothesis falls flat.
P.s. Not only is it a complicated matter, matching lunar and solar calendars, but the dating is doubtful, too.
"When was Passover in AD 30? People who ask this question are normally trying to calculate the exact date of Jesus’ death.
The New Testament states that Jesus died on a Friday at the beginning of the Jewish Passover, and that his resurrection took place on the following Sunday. However, it is not quite clear if Jesus’ death took place immediately before the start of the Jewish Passover or on the first day of Passover. Since Passover starts on 15 Nisan, it is unclear if Jesus died on 14 or 15 Nisan.
This question is important for Christian historians because if you know the date, you may with some degree of confidence also calculate the year; all you have to do is find a year near AD 30 where 14 or 15 Nisan fell on a Friday.
The problem is that we don’t know the exact details of the Hebrew calendar as it was used in the first century. This means that we have to allow for a margin of a day or two in the calculations, and this in turn means that we are left with quite a few possible dates.
Through the centuries several different dates for the crucifixion have been suggested. Currently, the most common theories suggest either 7 April AD 30 or 3 April AD 3 3."
So it seems that our chum Lantern is assuming that there was a Passover Friday in the AD 30 -36 timeframe, but does not know this to be so, which does weaken his argument quite a bit. The above site is looking at a death on a Friday day of preparation, of course, but the point is, it's hard to know what day Passover actually fell on in those days
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 05-23-2012 at 07:47 AM..
This double sabbath you are positing does not work as that is not what is recorded. The embarrassment is there that prophetically, jesus was NOT dead for 3 days.
It is recorded within the Gospels, because Jesus rose again on Sunday. I think just by knowing what the Passover is and the traditions, the writer of the Gospels expect us to know that two Sabbaths passed that week.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
The argument is anyway moot as the whole existence of the jesus is questionable. It is likely that there was Jewish rebel of sorts that got himself noticed and got himself crucified. Other than that, no more credence than any other ancient legend.
This is not the only discrepancy.
But even if any of this was remotely true, like everything else you try and apply logic to fails.
IF jesus was to reconcile man to god, it failed. World peace never happened even in the then world as they knew it.
IF jesus actually died for our sins, why do we have to do anything more? If he took on the punishment/wrath of god for all humanity, it is a done deal, whether we choose to believe or not.
You know I am correct in this but that model does not work as the religion requires suffrage and sucking up and tithing, hence we find most christians adopt and espouse the teachings of Paul.
There is nothing theologically consistent in the gospels and for much of the bible. Are we to follow the commandments or simple be born again? Both espoused by jesus allegedly.
Did he follow the Jewish law or didn't he? We have accounts of both where he does and where he does not.
IF the bible was the word of god, a simple reading would lead everyone to the exact same conclusion yet it does not. Why is that?
Seems only the folk that become ex christians by actually studying the bible are the ones with consistency - we all agree it is crap.
Please do not play the hs card as that is bogus too.
Jesus didn't fail in His mission. Its in this day that we choose to accept Him or not. Jesus fulfilled His part, He made provision for us to come to God. Now we have to receive Him. It's like if you had a 100,000 dollar debt, and Jesus is offering you 1,000,000 dollars to pay it off. (An overpayement) Yet, if you don't receive it, you are still in debt. At some point, the due date for the payment will come up, and if you can't pay, you will lose everything. (In some countries they may take your home, others they may throw you in jail. The point is you lose something. In this case, you lose your life, because it is God who gave your life to you. This is if He exists, and I'm explaining to you what's up.)
So God is patient for people to receive from Him. There's a whole lot more to say from what you post, but I'll refrain from getting into those points just yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
and
That actually stacks up. I would really like to find a calendar that gives all the previous festival dates so I can check that, but it helps your case that there is a Friday passover (with a Saturday sabbath) in the 30 -36 AD timeframe.
I agree that the Gospels were written in Greek and for greeks (that's why they needed to translate the aramaic) and probably BY greeks. That said, IF they were basing that gospel story on an actual event, then Jewish and Roman timekeeping practices would apply rather than Greek.
I think it's clear what I'm doing here. I'm seeing what works and what doesn't. Whether there is anything that stands up as a feasible (if not compelling) snippit of factuality. There is no doubt in my mind that much has been added, from OT scripture, Paul's remarks and perhaps other religions.
If we find a 33 AD Friday Passover, then that hypothesis stands up, though of course, there are objections - that the crucifixion probably wasn't a passover event at all and that the need for a 2 day interval when it doesn't read like that (as you say, Seeker) is only wanted for theological reasons. If we find out that there wasn't a Friday passover in the timeframe (I have learned never to take claims unchecked) then the whole three -day hypothesis falls flat.
P.s. Not only is it a complicated matter, matching lunar and solar calendars, but the dating is doubtful, too.
"When was Passover in AD 30? People who ask this question are normally trying to calculate the exact date of Jesus’ death.
The New Testament states that Jesus died on a Friday at the beginning of the Jewish Passover, and that his resurrection took place on the following Sunday. However, it is not quite clear if Jesus’ death took place immediately before the start of the Jewish Passover or on the first day of Passover. Since Passover starts on 15 Nisan, it is unclear if Jesus died on 14 or 15 Nisan.
This question is important for Christian historians because if you know the date, you may with some degree of confidence also calculate the year; all you have to do is find a year near AD 30 where 14 or 15 Nisan fell on a Friday.
The problem is that we don’t know the exact details of the Hebrew calendar as it was used in the first century. This means that we have to allow for a margin of a day or two in the calculations, and this in turn means that we are left with quite a few possible dates.
Through the centuries several different dates for the crucifixion have been suggested. Currently, the most common theories suggest either 7 April AD 30 or 3 April AD 3 3."
So it seems that our chum Lantern is assuming that there was a Passover Friday in the AD 30 -36 timeframe, but does not know this to be so, which does weaken his argument quite a bit. The above site is looking at a death on a Friday day of preparation, of course, but the point it, it's hard to know what day passover actually fell on in those days
I know many have said that Jesus died on Passover, which seems to be the majority view today. However again in John ch. 18 verse 28, it states how the Jewish leaders didn't want to go into the Praetorium (where Pilate was), because they didn't want to defile themselves for the Passover feast. This was after Jesus arrest and the Last Supper. This tells us that Jesus celebrated the Passover meal on the 14th (same day the lamb is killed), and the chief priests celebrated the meal on the actual Passover. (The people still do this today by the way. They eat the Passover Seder on both the 14th and 15th)
Yes he did according to the Jews. There was never a requirement for human sacrifice; a practice outlawed by Jewish tradition.
Quote:
Its in this day that we choose to accept Him or not. Jesus fulfilled His part, He made provision for us to come to God. Now we have to receive Him. It's like if you had a 100,000 dollar debt, and Jesus is offering you 1,000,000 dollars to pay it off. (An overpayement) Yet, if you don't receive it, you are still in debt. At some point, the due date for the payment will come up, and if you can't pay, you will lose everything. (In some countries they may take your home, others they may throw you in jail. The point is you lose something. In this case, you lose your life, because it is God who gave your life to you. This is if He exists, and I'm explaining to you what's up.)
You really are not telling us anything new.
Why should anyone have to accept this if it is a done deal?
They say, dressing up a turd, it still remains a turd no matter how much you sugar coat it.
Seems a lot of the pointers I have posted have gone right over your head.
These gospel accounts are fabricated and at best 5th or 6th hand accounts. I have my doubts on that and agree that most came form copying Mark.
You actually have to go outside your comfort zone and study up on pagan myths and see just how much was incorporated into xianity.
They had 300+ years to tweak and twist it before the canon was decided.
It is recorded within the Gospels, because Jesus rose again on Sunday. I think just by knowing what the Passover is and the traditions, the writer of the Gospels expect us to know that two Sabbaths passed that week.
I don't think so. You have to have a very unusual passover falling on the Friday with a sabbath following to wangle a two day 'rest' period. That is highly uncommon and is in no way hinted at in the Gospels.
Quote:
Jesus didn't fail in His mission. Its in this day that we choose to accept Him or not. Jesus fulfilled His part, He made provision for us to come to God. Now we have to receive Him. It's like if you had a 100,000 dollar debt, and Jesus is offering you 1,000,000 dollars to pay it off. (An overpayement) Yet, if you don't receive it, you are still in debt. At some point, the due date for the payment will come up, and if you can't pay, you will lose everything. (In some countries they may take your home, others they may throw you in jail. The point is you lose something. In this case, you lose your life, because it is God who gave your life to you. This is if He exists, and I'm explaining to you what's up.)
So God is patient for people to receive from Him. There's a whole lot more to say from what you post, but I'll refrain from getting into those points just yet.
Your can save yourself and us the bother; your theological beliefs are irrelevant to the thread.
Quote:
I know many have said that Jesus died on Passover, which seems to be the majority view today. However again in John ch. 18 verse 28, it states how the Jewish leaders didn't want to go into the Praetorium (where Pilate was), because they didn't want to defile themselves for the Passover feast. This was after Jesus arrest and the Last Supper. This tells us that Jesus celebrated the Passover meal on the 14th (same day the lamb is killed), and the chief priests celebrated the meal on the actual Passover. (The people still do this today by the way. They eat the Passover Seder on both the 14th and 15th)
Pre - P. s. Your above suggests that you don't really comprehend the argument. Yes, sure. All the trial and crucifixion is feasibly placed on the preparation day (in fact I gather the sacrificial lamb is selected on the day or preparation but is killed on Passover morning or midday for the evening passover Seder feast) but that in no way places the day of preparation on any day other than before a Passover which the gospels imply also fell on a Sabbath Saturday. Your post above does nothing to support your case.
The gospels place the events heavily on passover, but there are reasons why the story was constructed around passover. There are several hints that it actually took place on Sukkhot.
John is very specific about the praetorium, as he is about the 'Gabattha' pavement, the Pool Bethzatha by the sheeps' gate in Jerusalem and the story about the miraculous healing powers. But is it eyewitness or just tourist stuff? He takes the Guidebook Bethzathea pool and links it with the healing of the sick man (John 5) which is linked by 'take up your pallet and walk' with the Synoptic account of a lame man healed in Capernaum (in Galilee).
Moreover, John has the feeding of the 5,000 with Passover 'at hand' which it can't be.
So I don't care what Patriarch claimed that he knew some preacher in Ephesus who claimed to know the actual John who was Jesus' disciple -the author of John is not reliable and the passover dating of passion -week is open to question.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 05-23-2012 at 08:39 AM..
Yes he did according to the Jews. There was never a requirement for human sacrifice; a practice outlawed by Jewish tradition.
Yes, human sacrifice, that is people who descended directly from Adam. Jesus wasn't born like us, and thus that didn't apply to Him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
You really are not telling us anything new.
Why should anyone have to accept this if it is a done deal?
The done deal is in Jesus. He fulfilled the Law for us, now we have to receive Him. We have to be born again in His nature. (You see we are born after Adam, and thus we are born into Adam's corruption. We must be born in Jesus to have His nature of perfection) So the only way for you to receive Jesus' finished work, you must be born again in Him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
They say, dressing up a turd, it still remains a turd no matter how much you sugar coat it.
Seems a lot of the pointers I have posted have gone right over your head.
These gospel accounts are fabricated and at best 5th or 6th hand accounts. I have my doubts on that and agree that most came form copying Mark.
You actually have to go outside your comfort zone and study up on pagan myths and see just how much was incorporated into xianity.
They had 300+ years to tweak and twist it before the canon was decided.
The Gospel accounts are interesting. All of them except John's account, was most likely written 20+ years after Jesus rose again. (No later than 62-63 AD) In this time, much of the people who knew Jesus, was still alive.
Ultimately, it is highly unlikely they were altered, because the Church was an established organization. The ones that became canon, are most accurate to the original letters. (Over time, through translations, a couple of words was added for understanding purposes, but the original translations I can safely say have remained the same)
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