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I know that Capo has a powerful intellect and ability to set things out, but I think he might need a bit of support.
There are a lot of appeals here to gap for god arguments. Because science doesn't know everything, that in no way means that it is valid to stuff God - belief (or even 'god'- belief) into the gaps in our knowledge.
I have to take issue with the claim that science is somehow validating the Bible. It is true that Bible- believers are fiddling the text or concepts to make it look as though it 'already knew it' but you'll note that nobody heard anything about it from the pulpit until science discovered it...whatever it is 007 and a half had in mind.
Now, I hear this claim that Faith is not based on the Bible or even dependent on it, but these claims that 'I knew God before I knew the Bible' are open to question. Quite apart from someone telling you about that was in the Bible before it was even read (how few people have actually read it - even believers!) there is this thing of feelings of happiness, fulfillment, awe at nature, the pleasure of feeling appreciated, useful, worthwhile and, especially, able to offload all our concerns and worries onto the God - figure - well, it's easy then to claim that you 'knew' God before you were told about it.
The other explanation is that you knew all those positive feelings before you had a Bible- based faith attached to them.
If my faith depends on what the Bible says - at some point, you have to go there. Otherwise it's just your word against mine and it's all simply one's opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by reed067
Thats all it really is anyhow your word/opinion against those who don't believe as you do. Even quoting the bible it's still word against everyone else's. You'll see it as it as Gods word but to everyone else it's still the writings of man & nothing else. And in reality that's all it really is ...unless you can prove your God is more real then mine is. I can't prove mine is more or less then your is. Like someone else said that's why it's called faith.
I agree with your response.
Ultimately my life should be a testimony to God's power.
The Bible actually says (uh-oh, there I go quoting Scripture) that the "righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith." (Rom. 1:17).
Why shouldn't I quote Scripture if it lines up with the truth? I think there should be both one's own words along side of Scripture.
But as Jesus said , "Light has come into the world, But men loved darkness rahter than light, becuse their deeds were evil."
Even our intellects are "fallen"....sinful. If a man does not have an open mind to this, he will not accept the truths you just gave.
Substitute the red above with "the Holy Spirit" and you are on target. Just like what was stated below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150
Nope. I believed in God for years before becoming a Christian. My faith is based on my relationship with God. Not a book. I am sorry that your faith was based on a book.
If I found that the bible was bunk, I'd still believe in God. His Spirit indwells me and I know He's real. Stuff happens that remind me of His reality.
I know that Capo has a powerful intellect and ability to set things out, but I think he might need a bit of support.
There are a lot of appeals here to gap for god arguments. Because science doesn't know everything, that in no way means that it is valid to stuff God - belief (or even 'god'- belief) into the gaps in our knowledge.
I have to take issue with the claim that science is somehow validating the Bible. It is true that Bible- believers are fiddling the text or concepts to make it look as though it 'already knew it' but you'll note that nobody heard anything about it from the pulpit until science discovered it...whatever it is 007 and a half had in mind.
Now, I hear this claim that Faith is not based on the Bible or even dependent on it, but these claims that 'I knew God before I knew the Bible' are open to question. Quite apart from someone telling you about that was in the Bible before it was even read (how few people have actually read it - even believers!) there is this thing of feelings of happiness, fulfillment, awe at nature, the pleasure of feeling appreciated, useful, worthwhile and, especially, able to offload all our concerns and worries onto the God - figure - well, it's easy then to claim that you 'knew' God before you were told about it.
The other explanation is that you knew all those positive feelings before you had a Bible- based faith attached to them.
The excuse of Theists using 'the God of gaps argument' is fallacious ; we HAVE sufficient scientific evidences that show a theistic personal Creator is absolutely required for what we have and that such is still sustaining the comos to unimaginable precision and extreme order . The alternative of everything came about via natural causes and materials without a shred of inteliigent intervention is what makes atheism so utterly illogical ---- and completely void of any scientific support ; only psuedo-science support based on unproven theories, imaginations, speculation, and unprovable opinion .
Perhaps you should venture into investigating how science is/has confirming the Bible . Why wouldnt One be willing to do so ?
Faith is required on behalf of the Theist as well as the Atheist since niether were present when the Cosmos was caused . But based on what even the average person can observe , the evidence is clear that someone who also contains such things as logic, reason, conscience, morality,abstract thinking, and our other highly personal traits ... was responsible them being caused in us . You step into the incredulous when trying to match them to the cause of materials and naturalism. The required faith of an Athiest is over-the-top as compared to the reasonable faith required of a Theist based on reality .
Every person on Earth has the capability of determining that a personal theistic Entity exists from just a cursory examination of Creation ; how much more when you start to move into the sciences and discover how incredible even a Monarch Butterfly is with its migrational habits...something that blind, random macro evolution could never accomplish given how ever much time you wish to assign. People are without excuse for not recognizing and acknowledging our Creator and for trying to jettison such by filling the gaps with wild imaginations as abiogenesis, macro evolution, naturalism, and materialism for causes.
I never asserted that we needed the Bible to experience feelings of appreciation, happiness, fulfillment, etc...for , that is obvious. What we need the Bible for is a greater/deeper understanding of ourselves as well as the Creator who is responsible for the Universe coming into existence , what he is like, what eternity has in store for every human being, and how to reconcile depraved sinfilled Mankind to a very holy and moral Creator whos loving protective Laws we have all violated overtly or covertly by recieving his global plan of actually coming to Earth in the person of Jesus Christ the Son of God to be a sufficient atonement for our willful rebellion toward God . As i said before, even a person whos never been told of Gods salvation plan can see the depravity that lies within ..the darker side to his personality and realize he/she is grossly deficient in the areas of morality, ethics, right thinking , and outward behaviour. The Bible serves to bring light to this fact by deeply examining the human nature. In short, the Bible has everything necessary by way of Psychology, Biology, Cosmology, Astro Physics, Morality, Ethics, and Sociology for the diligent Inquirer ----- no other Book on Earth has so much under one cover . Its a shame so many people have a preconcieved bias toward it obviously based on personal philosophical reasons ; its a wise person who is willing to veto his pride for the sake of acquiring greater truth about his purpose and meaning to life .
You know what I fine interesting, is that my people have been able to have a much greater understanding of the Creator and of ourselves without any sacred book. For thousands of years we have been able to live in harmony with ourselves and with the Creator and everything around us, we had no use of the Christian sacred book or any sacred book for that matter, we didn't need to have it put down in writing because it was written in our hearts and in our spirit. If your belief and religion has to be written down in a book for you to understand, then it's not written in your heart and spirit and it is not true to you.
You know what I fine interesting, is that my people have been able to have a much greater understanding of the Creator and of ourselves without any sacred book. For thousands of years we have been able to live in harmony with ourselves and with the Creator and everything around us, we had no use of the Christian sacred book or any sacred book for that matter, we didn't need to have it put down in writing because it was written in our hearts and in our spirit. If your belief and religion has to be written down in a book for you to understand, then it's not written in your heart and spirit and it is not true to you.
We techno Europeans need a book to spell it out. With that said, good post!
I'm not trying to pick on Christians here & I don't want this to become a big fight. I really would like to know. However I never never understood why some can't defend thier faith without mentioning the bible. If your strong in your faith then why not use your own words?
The reason Christians mention the Bible, because it's from the Bible where Christians get their faith. If there were no Bible, there would be no Christians. THE WORD OF GOD IS THE BIBLE
Ultimately my life should be a testimony to God's power.
The Bible actually says (uh-oh, there I go quoting Scripture) that the "righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith." (Rom. 1:17).
Why shouldn't I quote Scripture if it lines up with the truth? I think there should be both one's own words along side of Scripture.
and indeed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinylly
The reason Christians mention the Bible, because it's from the Bible where Christians get their faith. If there were no Bible, there would be no Christians. THE WORD OF GOD IS THE BIBLE
Whether the Bible actually does 'line up' with what we have shown to be valid fact (the science proves Bible thread is to be read in tandem ) or not is off the topic. Whether one should should or should not quote the Bible is not the point. It is that Christians cannot avoid doing so and for a very good reason. The Bible is the basis of their faith and is the only basis for for their faith.
Their Faith stands and falls on the Bible, though some pull back to a more non - denominational God-faith which they then claim they had before the even read the Bible. As if nobody had told them what to believe without their needing to read it
But without the Bible, there is no basis for their Christian faith. If the Bible is not to be relied upon in what it claims about God, religion and jesus, then Christianity in no more than a political party with funny hats.
Christians can no more eave off quoting the Bible than atheists can leave off quoting scientific evidence - and we would certainly ask why on earth we shouldn't do so.
I'm not trying to pick on Christians here & I don't want this to become a big fight. I really would like to know. However I never never understood why some can't defend thier faith without mentioning the bible. If your strong in your faith then why not use your own words?
I agree. It's nice to be able to quote from scripture to show where your beliefs originate, but entire posts comprised of passage after passage from the Bible annoy me to no end. I think the reason for this is that, generally speaking, the people who are guilty of doing this seem to not have a clue that fifty verses of scripture quoted out of context really isn't going to prove anything. Hundreds upon hundreds of verses can be interpreted differently, and people who insist that it's absolutely impossible to understand scripture any differently than they do are simply too closed-minded to even try to talk to.
The reason Christians mention the Bible, because it's from the Bible where Christians get their faith. If there were no Bible, there would be no Christians. THE WORD OF GOD IS THE BIBLE
Wrong especially when it comes to the existence of our personal theistic Creator which is for EVERYONE and not just those whove become Christians. Everyone whos ever lived has/can exercise a little bit of faith when they examine Creation to see that it had to have come from an incredible Mind at work with near unimaginable power ; just because a person likes the label of 'atheist' doesnt mean they dont excersise faith . In fact, they excerise a TON of faith when they force themselves to think that 'Nature' (natural causes combined with raw materials without a lick of reason or purpose) is responsible for all we have and all we are. So, faith is something WE ALL have...its just a matter of what amount is required for your worldview . Plus, we see faith excersised in many daily things we do such as when we drive our cars an have faith that another motorist is going to stop in time behind us / when we step on an airplane having faith it will reach our final destination without crashing / having faith in the Suitor that picks up our 16 year old Daughter for Prom that he will return her the same way as when she left the house / faith that our U.S. Government will still make Social Security payments when WE reach retirement age / and the list of daily excersised faith is virtually endless. Our whole lives are faith-based ... so its not just for the religious minded folks -- its for the secular Counterpart too.
Also, read Post # 44.
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I can't prove mine is more or less then your is. Like someone else said that's why it's called faith.
With that said, good post!
) or not is off the topic. Whether one should should or should not quote the Bible is not the point. It is that Christians cannot avoid doing so and for a very good reason. The Bible is the basis of their faith and is the only basis for for their faith. 
