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What this thread is
This thread is an attempt at presenting a short summary of The Documentary Hypothesis - the working model that the Pentateuch is not a unified whole written by one author, but is a collection of documents that were eventually edited together into the form we have it now - since the topic (or sujects on which the Documentary Hypothesis have great bearing) comes up from time to time.
The Pentateuch is the Greek term for the first five books of the Bible: The Torah in Hebrew (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy). Tradition has long ascribed it's writing to a single author: Moses. It's importance for rabbinic creedal statements based on the belief that Scripture is divinely inspired, but written down by Moses, is demonstrated by this statement:
Even if one maintains that the whole Torah is from heaven except a certain verse which the Holy One, blessed be He, did not speak, but rather Moses himself...that soul shall be utterly cut off."
(b. Sanh. 99a)
Such strong words - but these were necessary, for the rabbis had been building up their own traditional writings ultimately based on the Divine Authority of the Pentateuch, and any challenge to Mosaic Pentateuchal authorship would bring into question everything they had written.
First things first, though! So where does this idea that Moses wrote the Pentateuch come from anyways? One of the first places that we can use as a starting place is the Hebrew Bible.
The Biblical Opinion on Who Wrote the Pentateuch: 1 - The Pentateuch and the Deuteronomistic History.
One might find it surprising that in the Pentateuch itself it nowhere explicitly states that Moses wrote it.
The assumed Mosaic Authorship might have been a by-product of the different ways in which the word "Torah" is used.
>>Torah means "law", "teaching" or "instruction" - an initially singular usage referring to a single legal or religious proscription. Examples of it's usage as such:
One Instruction (Torah) shall there be for the native and for the sojourner that sojourns in your midst.
(Exodus 12:49, SB)
Command Aharon and his sons, saying:
This is the Instruction (Torah) for the offering-up...
(Leviticus 6:2)
Comamnd Aharon and to his sons, saying:
This is the Instruction (Torah) for the hattat-offering...
(Lev. 6:18)
This usage of "Torah" denotes a single "torah" or cultic "torah", and an explanation of the individual "torah" usually follows.
>>The word becomes broadened in it's meaning with the Book of Deuteronomy's usage of it to referto the Covenant Code of chapters 12-26, in a collective sense. Moses helps demonstrate this when he speaks of the Covenant Code which he will deliever in chs. 12-26 and then asks rhetorically whether other nations have such a "Torah". His usage of "that I put before you today" limits the meaning of Torah to the Covenant Code of Deuteronomy:
For who (else) is (such) a great nation
that has gods so near to it
as YHWH our God
in all our calling on him?
And who (else) is (such) a great nation
that has laws and regulations so equitable
as all this Instruction [Torah]
that I put before you today?
(Deuteronomy 4:7-8)
This is the Instruction [Torah] that Moshe set before the Children of Israel.
(Deut. 4:44)
YHWH will separate him for ill from all the tribes of Israel,
according to all the oath-curses of the covenant
that are written in this document of Instruction [Torah].
(Deut. 29:20)
Notice that a new term begins to be used, as well: "Document/Scroll/Book of the Torah". (Bear in mind that "Book" is purely anachronistic as a translation for sefer in the Hebrew Bible - books had a long time to yet appear as a form of document) This usage of "Torah" for the collective laws of the Covenant Code is used only in Deuteronomy, except for one passage in Numbers which mixes both usages:
This is the Instruction [Torah - singular] for cases-of-jealousy,
when a woman strays under her husband('s authority)
and makes-herself-tamei [ritually impure - see here],
or when there comes over a man a rush of jealousy, so that he is jealous towards his wife:
he is to have the woman stand before the presence of YHWH,
and the priest is to perform regarding her (according to) all this Instruction [Torah - plurality].
The man shall be clear of iniquity,
but that woman shall bear her iniquity.
(Numbers 5:29-31)
>>The term is next used by the Deuteronomistic Historian (the writer or school of writers responsible for the books of Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings) to refer to the entire Book of Deuteronomy. Examples:
The first example requires a reading of Deuteronomy 31:9, 24:
Now Moshe wrote down this Instruction [Torah - plurality]
and gave it to the priests, the Sons of Levi... (9)
And it was, when Moshe had finished writing down the words of this Instruction [Torah - plurality] in a document, until they were ended,
Moshe commanded the Levites,
those carrying the coffer of the Covenant of YHWH,
saying:
Take this document of Instruction [Torah - plurality]... (24)
In Joshua, we now find reference to the "book" of Deuteronomy as a whole, with the preceding passage in mind. Warning, the translators of the following passage have a particular view of Torah (as related to Vassal Treaties of the ANE) and translate accordingly:
Then it was that Joshua built an altar for Yahweh the God of Israel near Mount Ebal,
as Moses the Servant of Yahweh had commnded the Bene Israel [Children of Israel],
as described in the book of the Treaty-Teaching [Torah - Deuteronomy]:
"an alter of whole stones against which you have wielded nothing of iron."
They offered upon it burnt offerings to Yahweh and they sacrificed peace offerings.
And there he wrote on the stones a copy of the Treaty-Teaching [Torah - Deuteronomy] of Moses which he recorded in the presence of the Bene Israel.
(Joshua 8:30-32, AB)
After that, he read all the stipulations of the Treaty-Teaching [Torah - Deuteronomy], the Blessing and the Curse, everything inscribed on the [document - trans. has "stela"] of the Treaty-Teaching [Torah - Deuteronomy]. There was not a word of all that Moses had commanded which Joshua did not read before the general assembly of the Bene Israel: the men, the women, youngsters, and aliens who journeyed in their midst.
(Josh. 8:34-35)
Notice that the terms "The Torah of Moses" and "The Book of the Torah of Moses" are now being used.
More examples:
When David's time to die drew near, he charged his son Solomon, saying:
"I am about to go the way of all the earth.
Be strong, be courageous, and keep the charge of the LORD [YHWH] your God,
walking in his ways and keeping his commandments, his ordinances, and his testimonies,
as it is written in the law [Torah - Deuteronomy] of Moses,
so that you may prosper in all that you do and wherever you turne.
(I Kings 2:1-3, NRSV)
But he did not put to death the children of the murderers;
according to what is written in the book of the law [Torah - Deuteronomy] of Moses, where the LORD [YHWH] commanded,
"The parent shall not be put to death for the children, or the children be put to death for the parents; but all shall be put to death for their own sins."
(II Kings 14:6)
The above verse, of course, refers to an individual "torah" found in "the Book of the Torah of Moses" - Deuteronomy 24:16. In another example from the Deuteronomistic Historian, the Book is attributed to Yahweh himself - so, "The Torah of Yahweh":
But Jehu was not careful to follow the law [Torah - Deuteronomy] of the LORD [YHWH] the God of Israel with all his heart; he did not turn from the sins of Jeroboam, which he caused Israel to commit.
(II Kgs. 10:31)
The usage of the term "Torah" to refer to the entire Pentateuch comes about later in the Hebrew Bible, and since it's late I'll deal with that tomorrow in another post.
To sum up:
1- Torah refers to an individual legal or cultic proscription 2- Torah refers to the collectivity of "torahs" found in the Covenant Code of Deut. 12-26 3- Torah refers to the entire book of Deuteronomy, with additional terms such as "The [Book of the] Torah of Moses" and "The Torah of YHWH" being used.
Feel free to comment and suggest other verses from the Pentateuch and the Deuteronomistic History for further examples, in the meanwhile. Eventually I'll get to post-Biblical views of Mosaic Authorship of the Pentateuch as well.
Thanks for the link, grandpa! It appears to be very helpful!
There's a brief section in there on the Mosaic Authorship of the Pentateuch - I will go into it in a bit more detail, for those interested in the arguments for and against it.
Glad you started this thread, whoppers, and I hope to be able to contribute at some point. But I must get my Shabbos preparations in order, so there's no time for me to write until after Shabbos ends tomorrow night.
In the meantime, perhaps you'll find this link an interesting read:
Such strong words - but these were necessary, for the rabbis had been building up their own traditional writings ultimately based on the Divine Authority of the Pentateuch, and any challenge to Mosaic Pentateuchal authorship would bring into question everything they had written.
Good point. That's the problem when you lie -- you have to keep telling more lies and then you eventually contradict yourself --- as so there it is.
I don't think people truly understand the role of the religious sect in politics. They were one in the same, so Religion = Politics = Power = Control. You have many sects vying for power. If you fast-forward to the millennium, you have the Pharisees -- effectively one brand of Judaism, and then the Sadducees, and then the Essene sect and who knows how many other minor sects, all vying for power, because power meant control (and wealth and comfort).
That of course leads groups to concoct wild conspiracies, like taking a person, grooming them and presenting a false history in support of "prophesy" so that this person could fake their death and then be "resurrected" -- effectively usurping and wresting power from the ruling factions, with the mass support of the awestruck populace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers
The assumed Mosaic Authorship might have been a by-product of the different ways in which the word "Torah" is used.
>>Torah means "law", "teaching" or "instruction" - an initially singular usage referring to a single legal or religious proscription. This usage of "Torah" denotes a single "torah" or cultic "torah", and an explanation of the individual "torah" usually follows.
That's actually part of the problem. The biblical references are vague and ambiguous, so when it says X-Moses "wrote this torah, to which torah are they actually referring to? The Commandments (not just the first ten Commandments, but all of them)? The law? Okay, which law? The priestly laws or the other laws? Or both? The Covenant?
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers
>>The term is next used by the Deuteronomistic Historian (the writer or school of writers responsible for the books of Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings) to refer to the entire Book of Deuteronomy.
I don't see that at all. Deuteronomy never existed until Jeremiah wrote it, so I don't see how there could be a "school" per se.
Not only that, Judges are anathema to Deuteronomy.
Judges are very obviously from the 'E' school, and harkens back to the days of separate kingdoms. Did Jeremiah edit and alter the 'E' texts? Yes, his dirty little paw prints are all over the first four books, plus Joshua, Judges and Samuel.
And that's another key point: Joshua. Joshua was southern hero (Kingdom of Judah) not a northern hero (Kingdom of Israel).
So there's no possibility of a 'D' School. You can have a 'D' School insomuch as Jeremiah wrote Deuteronomy, and then his hand picked successors continued making edits here and there on all Deuteronomistic histories-- especially after the Babylonian exile -- and that was a lot of Ezra making changes.
The North was into Judges, the South into Kings, mostly because David is of Judah and that tribe was "chosen" to rule. The North only agreed to kingship, precisely because it meant that someone from a southern tribe would be ruling, and that would lessen conflict amongst the northern 10 tribes -- you can think of it as the North wanting a neutral party to run the show instead of constant infighting between themselves.
Deuteronomy is another good topic of study.
The changes that took place were extraordinary. For an Hebrew, it would be on a par with being a catholic in the 1960s and having to live through Vatican II and their whole world view is being ripped apart and destroyed with all of the religious changes occurring -- times 100.
The Biblical Opinion on Who Wrote the Pentateuch: 2 - Ezra, Nehemiah and Chronicles
A quick summation again: 1- Torah refers to an individual legal or cultic proscription 2- Torah refers to the collectivity of "torahs" found in the Covenant Code of Deut. 12-26 3- Torah refers to the entire book of Deuteronomy, with additional terms such as "The [Book of the] Torah of Moses" and "The Torah of YHWH" being used. This is the book that Josiah "found", according to most scholars.
Now we get to the rest of the Hebrew Bible and how the term "Torah" was used to eventually refer to the entire Pentateuch.
>>The word becomes used to refer to the entire Pentateuch in the books of Ezra, Nehemiah and Chronicles. These books are post-exilic works and considerably late in their composition. They definitely refer to "the Torah" as comprising Deuteronomy (like in our previous stage of development) but they also appear to include the books Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers under that title. Our familiar titles are still being used: "The Book of Moses", "The Book of the Torah of Moses", and just "Torah" by itself to refer to the Pentateuch.
An excellent test-case can be found in how Chronicles handles the famous problem of the conflicting Passover command of whether to boil or roast the sacrifice. This is also an excellent example of why the authorial unity of the Pentateuch began to be doubted in the first place. Notice that each example gives a different method: boiling or roasting.
You may not slaughter the Passover-offering
within one of your gates that YHWH your God is giving you;
rather, in the place that YHWH your God chooses his name to dwell
you are to slaughter the Passover-offering, [one of the peculiar features of Deuteronomy that sets it apart from the other Pentateuchal books is it's insistence on one site for centralized worship only - it gives us a clue that it's composition occured at least after the Jerusalem Temple was built: another indication of composite Pentateuchal authorship]
at setting time,
when the sun comes in,
at the appointed-time of your going-out from Egypt.
You are to boil it and you are to eat it
in the place
that YHWH your God chooses.
(Deut. 16:5-7, SB)
It [the sacrifice] shall be for you in safekeeping, until the fourteenth day after this New-Moon,
and they are to slay it - the entire assembly of the community of Israel - between the setting-times.
They are to take some of the blood and put it onto the two posts and onto the lintel,
onto the houses in which they are to eat it. [Notice again, there is no requirement that the Passover-Offering be made in a centralized center - it is to be made in one's home, contra to Deut. above]
They are to eat the flesh on that night, roasted in fire,
and matzot,
with bitter-herbs they are to eat it. Do not eat any of it raw, or boiled, or boiled in water, but rather roasted in fire, its head along with its legs, along with its innards.
(Exd. 12:6-9)
Oops! A problem there.... Exodus specifically says to roast it, and definitely NOT to boil it. Deuteronomy says to boil it. What to do, what to do? The Chronicler comes up with an answer: do both!
They set aside the burnt offerings so that they might distribute them according to the groupings of the ancestral houses of the people, to offer to Yahweh as it is written inthe book of Moses.
And they did the same with the bulls. They boiled the Passover sacrifice in fire according to the ordinance [others have "roasted", but "boiled the Pasover sacrifice/lamb in fire" is what it literally says] ; and they boiled the holy offerings in pots, in cauldrons, and in pans, and carried them quickly to the people.
Afterward they made preparations for themselves and for the priests, beause the priests the descendants of Aaron were occupied in offering the burnt offerings and the fat parts until night...
(II Chronicles 35:12-14)
The Chronicler conflates both laws in his account, but in the end that's not really the important part for right now. The important thing to notice is that "the Book of Moses" is referring to at least Exodus and Deuteronomy here.
Another important factor is the Chronicler's rewriting of Israel's history - which he seems to have derived from the materials in the Pentateuch as a whole (this is not to say he did not use other written sources, but the evidence seems to indicate Pentateuchal rewriting), and the Deuteronomistic History. He provides extensive geneaologies going all the way back to Adam in Genesis.
During the Exile, Nehemiah becomes governor of the provence of Yehud and the Jews are allowed to return home. He begins the building of the structures that will eventually be completed by the religious and cultic practices that Ezra brings back with him from Babylon - he also brings back a "book".
"The Book of the Torah of Moses":
When all the people assembled themselves as one man at the plaza in front of the Water Gate, they requested Ezra the sribe to bring the book of the law [Torah] of Moses which Yahweh had presribed for Israel.
(Nehemiah 8:1, AB)
Other terms are used, as well - some we are already familiar with. The passage continues:
"The Book of the Torah":
So on the first day of the seventh month Ezra the priest brought the law [Torah] before the congregation consisting of men and women, and of all who could listen intelligently,
and he read from it in front of the plaza before the Water Gate from dawn unto midday before the men and women and (the others) who could understand (it);
all the people listened attentively to the book of the Law [Torah].
(Neh. 8:2-3)
The amount of time it took to read it to the people ("from dawn unto midday") and the time it took to explain it to them should indicate that whatever the book was - it was longggggg......The initial reading probably did not consist of the entire Pentateuch, but see further below (Neh. 8:18) for a longer reading that seems to indicate the Pentateuch.
"The Book of the Torah of God":
They read from the book of the law [Torah] of God in translation to make it intelligible and so helped them to understand the reading.
(Neh. 8:8)
The fact that it had to be read to them "in translation to make it intelligible" points to the fact that by this time Aramaic had taken over as the main lanugage of the Jews, as it had been the lingua franca of the 1st Millenium. Hebrew was a dying language, and the knowledge of it was held only be a few - like "Ezra the scribe". Anyways, another example of "the Book of the Torah of God":
And he read from the book of the law [Torah] of God day by day, from the first day until the last day (of the celebration). They celebrated the feast for seven days and on the eighth day they held a solemn assembly in accordance with the decree.
(Neh. 8:18)
This is the verse I mentioned to above in which the amount of time the reading took place gives a good indication that the content was the entire canonical Pentateuch.
"The words of the Torah":
Then Nehemiah the governor, and Ezra the priest and the scribe, and the Levites who instructed the people said to all the people,
"This day is sacred to Yahweh your God.
You must neither mourn nor weep";
for all the people wept when they heard the words of the law [Torah].
(Neh. 8:9)
An indication that most of the material was new to the Jews - who had never heard it before. Another verse makes the reference explicit when it is said that the people had never heard of some of the laws. This helps add to some suggestions that Ezra was the final redactor of the Pentateuch, and material was added that was composed in Exile, and that the Pentateuch as a whole did not exist before this time.
On the second day the heads of the families of all the people together with the priests and Levites assembled themselves to Ezra the scribe to gain further insight into the words of the law [Torah].
(Neh. 8:13)
"The Book of the Torah of Yahweh their God":
On the twenty-fourth day of this month the Israelites assembled themselves with fasting, with sackcloth, and with dust upon them.
Then those of Israelite stock who had severed relations with all foreigners stood up and confessed their sins and the iniquities of their fathers.
While they remained standing in their place they read from the book of the law [Torah] of Yahweh their God for the fourth part of the day and confessed and worshipped Yahweh their God for another fourth part.
(Neh. 9:1-3)
Another indication of the length of the "book", this unfortunate incident reflects Ezra's extremely racist policy against foreign wives. He enacted it and forced Judahite men to send away their foreign wives and children. The victims of this brutal policy were the common people who had not been taken away into Captivity, but had remained, married, and got on with life. Those exiled to Bablyon were mostly important people, the upper classes, etc. Upon their return, bearing the royal decree of Cyrus and the Persian legal authority to institute the religion of Yahweh as Ezra saw fit, along with the "book"
- Ezra, as representative of the upper classes returning, instituted this hateful policy against those lower class citizens who had tried to make a life for themselves in their ruined cities. At least one BIblical author - the author of the Book of Ruth - was vocally opposed to such a policy, and he wasn't the only one. Anyways - that's just part of the birth of Judaism in this period. Racial purity was important to some of the people, but definitely not to all.
The following verses make reference to more racists policies. It must be remembered that the author of Ruth was basically revolting against such policies by declaring that the paragon of a Jewish woman - Ruth - was actually a Moabitess. Not only that - she was the ancestor of King David!
"The Book of Moses":
At that time they read aloud to the people from the book of Moses and found written in it that no Ammonite or Moabite should ever enter into the congregation of God because they did not come to welcome the Israelites with food and drink and even hired Balaam to oppose them by cursing them;
but our God turned the curse into a blessing.
When they heard the law [Torah] they excluded all foreigners from Israel.
(Neh. 13:1-3)
And they put the priests in their divisions and the Levites in their positions for the service of (the house of) God at Jerusalem as prescribed in the book of Moses.
(Ezra 6:18)
"The Torah of Moses":
Then Jeshua, the son of Joadak, and his brothers, the priests, and Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, and his brothers arose and built the altar of the God of Israel to offer burnt offerings upon it as prescribed in the law [Torah] of Moses, the man of God.
(Ezra 3:2)
That was the Ezra who came from Babylon;
he was a scribe skilled in the law [Torah] of Moses which Yahweh God of Israel had given.
The king gave him everything he requested because the hand of Yahweh his God was upon him [a sign of inspiration, according to how some biblical authors used the term "hand of God upon"].
(Ezra 7:6)
Those are the various terms used in Ezra and Nehemiah. Whether all of these terms referred to the entire Pentateuch is uncertain, for a few appear to refer to the Covenant Code or the Holiness Code. What is clear is that most of the references DO appear to refer to the Pentateuch in it's basic final form. This was the "book" that Ezra wielded so effectively to help his people transition from Mosaic Yahwism to Judaism. The "Book" became more important than the Temple in many ways.
The idea of Mosaic Authorship has slowly taken form, but it's still not entirely certain whether all references imply that Moses composed the entire Pentateuch.
A quick summation again: 1- Torah refers to an individual legal or cultic proscription 2- Torah refers to the collectivity of "torahs" found in the Covenant Code of Deut. 12-26 3- Torah refers to the entire book of Deuteronomy, with additional terms such as "The [Book of the] Torah of Moses" and "The Torah of YHWH" being used. This is the book that Josiah "found", according to most scholars. 4- Torah refers to the entire Pentateuch, with additional terms being used (as described above) that can still refer to individual parts of the Pentateuch.
Next post, I will probably look at how Jewish Tradition began to view Mosaic Authorship of the Pentateuch.
Glad you started this thread, whoppers, and I hope to be able to contribute at some point. But I must get my Shabbos preparations in order, so there's no time for me to write until after Shabbos ends tomorrow night.
In the meantime, perhaps you'll find this link an interesting read:
That's good timing - hopefully by the time you're done, I'll be ready to start talking about Traditional Judaism's take on Pentateuchal Athorship.
The link is interesting, but the "Fred Theory" could be accounted for very easily be using principles found within the traditions of many religions that had an active liturgical and cultic system that did not include a written account of the tradition's origins (save for some allusions in the liturgy, possibly) for many hundreds of years. In such a system, the existence of a "Fred" later collecting many years of oral tradition could easily have constructed an origin narrative that did not require the assent of anyone living at the time of his writing to verify the truth claims of the narrative - the original characters of the oral tradition would have been long dead and gone.
In addition - the imagery of YHWH presented on the mountain is the typical imagery associated with a Storm God - which is how YHWH Is frequently depicted. In such cases, the "voice" of God would be the booming thunder, just as the arrows of his warbow (the same bow hung in the sky to signal the end of God's violence towards mankind after the Floord) are depicted as lightning. The image of the Warrior Storm God is quite frequent in the Hebrew Bible. I'm not trying to "explain away" the Sinai/Horeb incidents by natural causes - far from it! I'm merely pointing out that the voice of God was not always how we picture a voice. Additionally, according to the incident with Miriam and Aaron's objection to Moses' wife, the only person who could actually speak and hear God "face to face" apart from dreams and visions was Moses. So if the people heard anything, well...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
I don't think people truly understand the role of the religious sect in politics. They were one in the same, so Religion = Politics = Power = Control. You have many sects vying for power. If you fast-forward to the millennium, you have the Pharisees -- effectively one brand of Judaism, and then the Sadducees, and then the Essene sect and who knows how many other minor sects, all vying for power, because power meant control (and wealth and comfort).
Very true - separation of Church and State? What the heck is that ha ha?. I would only add that the power of the monarchy waned quite sigificantly with the Exile and the end of the Davidic Dynasty. It was at this point that the Priests and Scribes became more important and the Book became their tool of choice, retrojecting their current importance back into the history of Israel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
That's actually part of the problem. The biblical references are vague and ambiguous, so when it says X-Moses "wrote this torah, to which torah are they actually referring to? The Commandments (not just the first ten Commandments, but all of them)? The law? Okay, which law? The priestly laws or the other laws? Or both? The Covenant?
Yes, indeed! That's exactly why my first two posts focused so heavily on the different ways the word "torah" was used and understood biblically. It gets even more confusing when the term is later used to refer to all the teachings of Judaism en masse heh heh. But all of this confusion can be sorted out (for the most part) to help paint a picture of how and why Mosaic Pentateuchal Authorship became a traditional view. At least you have noticed that the confusion of terms probably helped contribute to this view, and you would be correct. In another thread, I noticed someone thoughtlessly quoting random verses with references to the "torah" in them, with not a thought as to what the term applied to. Ah well. Perhaps this thread can help elucidate the situation a little more clearly for some.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
I don't see that at all. Deuteronomy never existed until Jeremiah wrote it, so I don't see how there could be a "school" per se.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
Deuteronomy is another good topic of study.
We'll have to examine that a little later in detail. There are plenty more references that could be rallied to support that usage of "Torah" which I ommited. Additionally, if one reads Noth, Cross and Halpern - there arises a very good argument for a "school". There were at least multiple authors of the Deuteronomistic History, incoroporating earlier histories as well. I don't have time at the moment, but I see the subject coming up later in this thread, I'm sure. I listened to Friedman's Who Wrote the Bible again today, and while I do not agree with many of his points, he does make some interesting observatios on Deuteronomy and the Deuteronomistic History. I hesitate to accept Jeremiah as the author simply because prophets were generally not literate, but their words were recorded by literate scribes if they were felt to be important enough. I think in his 2nd edition, he changed his ascription of Dtr1 from Jeremiah to Baruch, his scribe. This makes a lot more sense, given what I just mentioned concerning literacy. Another helpful book to check out is J.E. Wright's Baruch Ben Neriah: From Biblical Scribe to Apocalyptic Seer (2003).
Glad you started this thread, whoppers, and I hope to be able to contribute at some point. But I must get my Shabbos preparations in order, so there's no time for me to write until after Shabbos ends tomorrow night.
In the meantime, perhaps you'll find this link an interesting read:
Thank you. While our recent amicable exchanges indicate a cordiality between us that I would hate to imperil, I am obliged to go with the 'Fred' theory here. The Exodus thread gives sound reasons (I suggest) why the whole egypt- Exodus -Sinai story cannot be relied upon and the article's 'Fred giving back the Jewish heritage' is rather redolent of the ol' apologetics strawman - try to make a similar - sounding argument look ridiculous so it is easy to dismiss and then leave others to assume that it is the real argument that has been dismissed.
To be fair, Rabbi Kelemen may not have heard the 'real' argument because (rather like my take on the gospels) I haven't heard it (in full) anywhere else.
'Fred' or perhaps several Jewish Freds wrote the OT/Pentateuch/Torah (or whatever term one prefers) in substantially its present form relatively late. Certainly post exile and I suspect from the prophecies of Tyre and Daniel, before the Hasmonean wars. Judaism had of course been around a long time by then so the Freds were giving back by way of tradition nothing much the Jews didn't have already. Indeed, they were only doing a final redaction of some older stuff, and some of that might go back quite a long way.
The point is that whether we can speculate on what might have been in the earlier Torahs (hints are that there were several gods and the present single one of the Bible was just the most important one for the Hebrews) the present version suggests a politico-religious argument showing that the only 'real' god had a plan for the people He had chosen and he was going to vindicate them against their enemies every time, except when they got beaten which was easy to explain as their having displeased Him in some way.
I am presently thinking of a time when Judaism was under real threat from the Seleucid Greeks and particularly Antiochus epiphanes. Daniel in fact can be dated to this period by its accurate history of the times dressed up as prophecy. The final redaction of the Torah was a mix of historical proof of God's guidance and help of his people and the promises of the Daniel prophecy - that God would support His people in any struggle to rid the nation of gentile rulers as indeed they thought he had when they won the Maccabean war.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-24-2012 at 03:28 AM..
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