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While us "believers" may be the majority, I beg to differ that the "non-believers" are subjected much any more to "laws/mores/societal standards set by believers" in todays society.
But we've been assured that MAJORITY RULEZZES!!!!! in this country, and you're telling us that the majority can't actually do everything they want? I wonder what's going on.
Anyway :
Quote:
Try saying prayer aloud in a public school!
Nothing wrong with it any time any other non-religious speech is allowed.
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Try including anything deemed "religious" in your graduation speech!
Depends on the context, but using a position of power over a group to abuse them with all sorts of god babble is in bad taste.
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Try putting up a sign or saying "Merry Christmas" as a government employee!
Ok...here's the deal. I do it on purpose. But, com'on...I've even admitted it
I typically subscribe to the same things as the Atheists--COMPLETE separation of church and state...The Fundie Religious, though having every right to their belief, can drive you bonkers when they thump and endorse the "wild miracle creation & destruction" and "heaven & hell" stuff...etc.
But, since I'm a Believer (Source Creator God) and technically on the "other side"...the allegiance to my Belief, coupled with my love of snark...compels me to state all, "that's the way it is" type things, in such a way that it will "zing" the Atheists. I never say I endorse, sanction, condone, or applaud some circumstance or condition that I note exists...I suffix it with, "You want a FACT, try THAT"...or..."You need to get hip to that", and, of course, ALWAYS note the vast "Believer Majority".
This obligatory, "sand down the collar", of the Atheists satisfies my snark addiction, and keeps me in compliance with the "Believer Support Protocol". It also tends to make it appear it is my personal view. Which is actually a good thing...because when the Atheists try to assign it to me...I get to come back and demand they show me where I ever said that was my personal belief...which they can't...because I never do, unless it is.
Like my last post to "agnostic soldier"...everything I said is technically true...but note the cool way I presented it. Being the official "Miss Prove It Empirically" of the C-D Atheist Clan...I'm sure she will really enjoy reading that.
P.S.---I think you might be onto something Awk...Invisible Gnomes...there is the solution to our fossil fuel dependence.
Ok, that's fine mate. You do seem to be straight with us in your own way and it's up to us (or down to us...I'm never sure ) to become familiar with how you post.
In fact your beliefs should be less of a factor than the validity of what you say. Atheists can talk nonsense and theists can talks sense. I can deal with a bit of snark in the course of making some point but snark for it's own sake or just to score meaningless points is annoying as it is a waste of our time.
I have to say that I don't approve of trying to mislead atheists about your views so as to trip them up later. It is too much like lying for (scoring brownie points with) Jesus. But of course we can't tell you how to post.
Just we should learn your methods so as to be ready for them.
What part of "majority rules" that I posted, didn't you get?
The part where you think it overrides constitutional protections of people who don't hold the majority views. For example, MAJORITY RULEZZES!!!!!! didn't help when 7 people decided abortion rights law for the remaining 300 million odd citizens of the US.
Our whole legal system is designed to avoid the kind of mob rule nonsense you think you're so cleverly pointing out. Sure, it's not perfect (no government is) but to pretend that these protections don't exist just to annoy non-believers is either ignorant or just amateurish trolling.
And it's also totally off-topic in justification for religious beliefs. Then again, it at least sounds better than your other approach of whatever you believe in is RIGHT because you believe in it.
Ok, that's fine mate. You do seem to be straight with us in your own way and it's up to us (or down to us...I'm never sure ) to become familiar with how you post.
In fact your beliefs should be less of a factor than the validity of what you say. Atheists can talk nonsense and theists can talks sense. I can deal with a bit of snark in the course of making some point but snark for it's own sake or just to score meaningless points is annoying as it is a waste of our time.
I have to say that I don't approve of trying to mislead atheists about your views so as to trip them up later. It is too much like lying for (scoring brownie points with) Jesus. But of course we can't tell you how to post.
Just we should learn your methods so as to be ready for them.
Never down...we are all ultimately equal.
I'll try to keep the snark in check.
I try not to state anything that isn't valid.
Ahhh...there it is AGAIN! I NEVER said I, "mislead Atheists" on purpose. I said I "zing" on purpose, and the snark, "...tends to make it appear it is my personal view. Which is actually a good thing...".
You need to find the humor in it...I do. Whenever i need a good laugh I go to Rafius' "Flying Pig" picture in post #214 in the "Do you Believe in Evolution?" thread. I even have it "bookmarked". It was, in fact, PURE snark for snarks' sake....but, oh so, hilarious! Look at the expression on the pig, the "angel" wings, the body position...how can you NOT love it! I'm crackin' up right now!!
The part where you think it overrides constitutional protections of people who don't hold the majority views. For example, MAJORITY RULEZZES!!!!!! didn't help when 7 people decided abortion rights law for the remaining 300 million odd citizens of the US.
Our whole legal system is designed to avoid the kind of mob rule nonsense you think you're so cleverly pointing out. Sure, it's not perfect (no government is) but to pretend that these protections don't exist just to annoy non-believers is either ignorant or just amateurish trolling.
And it's also totally off-topic in justification for religious beliefs. Then again, it at least sounds better than your other approach of whatever you believe in is RIGHT because you believe in it.
Yeah...we've got to fix that. No "majority of a small group" should ever set law. It should always be a popular vote...true govt by, for, and of, the poeple. Ever since touch-tone telephone service, and especially now with computers, the government could have facilitated that cheaply and easily. It would actually save a lot of money, as we could eliminate most of the reps. But then, the politicians couldn't run their "personal agenda" game...and pass huge pork-laden bills.
I think you are confusing what is "RIGHT" with what is "FACT"...and as is typical of people that don't think on a theological basis, you didn't see my statement in that context. If you go back and reread, that was the only context in which I made it...in answer to the thread question.
Bottom Line...It's your "right" to consider WHATEVER theological viewpoint you wish to subscribe to as the "RIGHT" one...for no other reason than that is the one you FREELY CHOSE to hold. You seem to criticize "freedom of religion" in the last sentence of your post...what's up with that?
Ahhh...there it is AGAIN! I NEVER said I, "mislead Atheists" on purpose. I said I "zing" on purpose, and the snark, "...tends to make it appear it is my personal view. Which is actually a good thing...".
You need to find the humor in it...I do. Whenever i need a good laugh I go to Rafius' "Flying Pig" picture in post #214 in the "Do you Believe in Evolution?" thread. I even have it "bookmarked". It was, in fact, PURE snark for snarks' sake....but, oh so, hilarious! Look at the expression on the pig, the "angel" wings, the body position...how can you NOT love it! I'm crackin' up right now!!
Can't say fairer than that though I must say that is a snark "..tends to make it appear it is my personal view." (assuming that it isn't) then the difference between that and misleading the other bod so as to trip them up later (I recall that you had that in hand if they said that you held such and such a view) is a difference I'd hate to live on.
Indeed, I like the humour even when I'm on the end of it. Unfortunately it can very often be misunderstood and taken as disrespect or flippancy. And if one is serious and factual then we are asked to 'lighten up'. Can we atheists do nothing right?
Theist: 'No, you can't because we want always to put you in the wrong.'
Can't say fairer than that though I must say that is a snark "..tends to make it appear it is my personal view." (assuming that it isn't) then the difference between that and misleading the other bod so as to trip them up later (I recall that you had that in hand if they said that you held such and such a view) is a difference I'd hate to live on.
Indeed, I like the humour even when I'm on the end of it. Unfortunately it can very often be misunderstood and taken as disrespect or flippancy. And if one is serious and factual then we are asked to 'lighten up'. Can we atheists do nothing right?
Theist: 'No, you can't because we want always to put you in the wrong.'
From what I can see...most of the Atheists here are just fine...really smart too.
I'd venture to say...most of the Believers feel that way....that's the vibe I get from what I can see, anyway.
And BTW...The difference is actually pretty great...especially the intent. I don't set out to "intentionally deceive"...it's just "snark" that I know will bring out the passion in the Atheists to such a degree that they won't be able to help themselves from wanting to rumple my feathers for pointing out whatever thorn-in-the-side reality I pointed out. Like my "Majority Rules" posts. It really is true that the majority typically RULES...and I know "rubbing that in" to the Atheists (that are a theological minority) will get them going. Invariably, they will assign some premise to me...like, that i must think "majority = truth". This amusing derivative almost always opens up other opportunities to further "the message of bitter reality"...like "Deeply Held Faith TRUMPS Objective Truth".
Actually, you guys have no room to complain...I have to work my butt off to get The Atheists to feed me even a little crumb to work off of...while you have the Bible Literalist Fundies basically feeding you material by the truckload.
Theists can never "put you in the wrong"...because when it comes to "belief", there is no such thing as "wrong"...that's why they call it "belief".
Atheists believe there is no God...sounds as good as anything else out there to me. Actually...better than a lot of it...IMO, of course. Anybody that says anothers' belief is "wrong"...just doesn't understand the meaning of, "I Believe".
I think in principle you could be a Fundamentalist and not want any of your beliefs supported by the government. I think "disengagement with politics" was even once common among Fundamentalists. The Baptists were once the biggest supporters of Church/State separation and I think the "Primitive Baptists" are still sometimes Fundamentalists disengaged from politics.
Of course a true separation and disengagement the way some smaller Baptist, also Anabaptist, Fundamentalist might want is difficult to achieve. The state is usually going to mandate some things on individuals. An individual Primitive Baptist or Old Order Mennonite will have to pay taxes even if those taxes go to things they oppose. Generally they will have to send their kids to some kind of school, although the US allows home-schooling and has a good network of religious schools.
I think what energized many of them is that before the state was moderately supportive of their values if officially neutral. Official neutrality aside Protestant prayers were said in public schools, Protestant values were mostly unchallenged, and the state did not support things clearly hostile to their faith. In the 1960s and 1970s that changed. The initial change of not celebrating Protestant values worked people up enough, but then the state became or appeared openly hostile to Protestant values. And you even had the more radical fringe wanting the US to be a "secular state" more in the mode of the French Revolution than American one. That energized non-Protestants as well even if the US has never, thank God, went the way of France.
My question for you is, how do you know your religion is the right religion? With so many religions out there, how do you know yours is right?
Judging from multiple perspectives including evidence acquired.
Even in the theological layer, there are many factors can be considered. To name a few,
1) Does the religion itself realise that it is a religion at all?
It seems the only the Arahamic religions address faith directly. To simply put, all religions are about faith (asking/inviting you to believe in), but not all religions are about faith. For instance, eastern religions are more or less about cause and effect without realising and addressing faith itself. Only Arahamic religions conveying the strong message that "you need faith to be saved".
2) How effective the religion itself is?
All religions set up dogmas or rules (such as Law and Commandments) for humans to obey (in order to be "saved" in a form). But humans in majority can hardly abide by those originating dogmas embedded inside the religions.
Only Christianity acknowledges this fact that "humans can hardly abide by the defined rules" such that an "update" is needed (i.e. a second covenant). As for other religions, the dogma/rules are clearly stated for everyone to disobey.
Judging from multiple perspectives including evidence acquired.
Even in the theological layer, there are many factors can be considered. To name a few,
1) Does the religion itself realise that it is a religion at all?
It seems the only the Arahamic religions address faith directly. To simply put, all religions are about faith (asking/inviting you to believe in), but not all religions are about faith. For instance, eastern religions are more or less about cause and effect without realising and addressing faith itself. Only Arahamic religions conveying the strong message that "you need faith to be saved".
2) How effective the religion itself is?
All religions set up dogmas or rules (such as Law and Commandments) for humans to obey (in order to be "saved" in a form). But humans in majority can hardly abide by those originating dogmas embedded inside the religions.
Only Christianity acknowledges this fact that "humans can hardly abide by the defined rules" such that an "update" is needed (i.e. a second covenant). As for other religions, the dogma/rules are clearly stated for everyone to disobey.
Hmm. well..it depend how you apply the definitions to the concepts.
Let me put it this way. If one defines religion as a faith then one can say that some religions are not because they believe in natural law rather than place their trust (faith) in a saving deity (Buddhism/Taoism) Others are more about organising society (confucianism) and some are based more on a mental technique Scientology). I have heard many claim that their faith is not a religion but a 'way of life' which is pretty daft because they can all say that, and each can also have believers who just keep their faith to be brought out on special occasions.
But others can say that 'Faith' is just what ones believes. Thus science and evolution is a 'faith' and so is atheism. Thus they are all religions.
So the correct view is that there is belief based on sound evidence which I would designate 'faith' witha a small 'f' and belief based on poor to nil evidence which covers Karma, gods, Thetans, Gods from outer space, Atlantis and Bigfoot. If it doesn't have an organised church one can call it a 'cult' rather than a religion. In any case, maintaining a belief in something without good evidence and even against good evidence is 'Faith'. Religious - type Faith.
It need hardly be said that science is not 'Faith' of that kind and nor is atheism.
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) to become familiar with how you post. 
