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^ Yep, oftentimes there is "unlearning" of sorts from churches that is needed, of what is religiously-bogus and must be tossed in the trash. Keeping the spiritual and genuine, but removing the false teachings that get in the way and cause stumbling and division.
Exactly. Keeping the good and dropping the "bad and ugly" as I always say. Unfortunately, sometimes it seems we've got to drop some of the good in order to free ourselves of the bad, because beliefs that make us feel good are not always so good for everyone in the bigger picture. Unfortunately, not only do we tend to be biased along these lines, but we're not always as well aware about how our innocent actions at the personal "micro" level materialize into the more serious general problems at the larger "macro" level.
Simply noting all the obvious differences we humans have been dickering about since our imaginations developed does not mean that we should not all be discerning about what notions we should accept and adopt and/or what notions to reject and leave behind. Right? We should be discerning and the fact that we have been discerning in so many good ways is how and why we make progress in so many important ways. Or else we'd still be offering sacrifices to please the gods.
Unfortunately the scrutiny and discernment that for some is part of that progress is for others "heavy criticism, divisiveness and even hatred." Seems to me, the trick is to recognize what is important along these lines, regardless the delivery and dispense with what is not important. In the business world it's called "adopting best practices." Doing so is no easy trick, but it's done by doing a good job of assessing what works and abandoning what doesn't. No easy trick, because not all people will agree or get on board with what others consider progress.
And what objective way is there to determine, "...what notions we should accept and adopt and/or what notions to reject and leave behind."?
Who gets to determine? What basis should be used as a metric to determine what the "best practices" are and "what is important/not important"?
And what objective way is there to determine, "...what notions we should accept and adopt and/or what notions to reject and leave behind."?
Who gets to determine? What basis should be used as a metric to determine what the "best practices" are and "what is important/not important"?
Good question(s) with no simple easy one answer(s)...
All I might suggest is to read, learn and understand the history that has helped us make progress over time. Say for example the fight for human rights that has helped us move from the likes of slavery and the more serious effects of racism. Study that history, and we might better be able to establish how such progress is made over time. Progress thanks to our better judgements that began to hold sway over time. What I like to call the "slow maturing of man." Human rights recognition and protections are the sort of "best practices" we have come to adopt over time despite those who have always insisted on retarding that sort of progress. Better practices anyway.
In the case of religion, it's been the slow allowance of birth control and better recognition of women's rights too, as just two examples of many that have similarly evolved over time. Still too slowly but ultimately for the better. Let alone that we're not still offering human sacrifices to please the gods. No longer burning witches at the stake. How did we make that sort of progress? Surely you have some answers of your own if you have any good understanding of how these histories have unfolded over time. At a minimum we all know it takes time.
No doubt not the more specific answer you were hoping for, but somewhere here is your answer as best you can figure it out yourself. I could go on, but since it's about time for me to get on with preparing our BSB, I'll leave it here for now. Until maybe again tomorrow. Thanks.
Good question(s) with no simple easy one answer(s)...
All I might suggest is to read, learn and understand the history that has helped us make progress over time. Say for example the fight for human rights that has helped us move from the likes of slavery and the more serious effects of racism. Study that history, and we might better be able to establish how such progress is made over time. Progress thanks to our better judgements that began to hold sway over time. What I like to call the "slow maturing of man." Human rights recognition and protections are the sort of "best practices" we have come to adopt over time despite those who have always insisted on retarding that sort of progress. Better practices anyway.
In the case of religion, it's been the slow allowance of birth control and better recognition of women's rights too, as just two examples of many that have similarly evolved over time. Still too slowly but ultimately for the better. Let alone that we're not still offering human sacrifices to please the gods. No longer burning witches at the stake. How did we make that sort of progress? Surely you have some answers of your own if you have any good understanding of how these histories have unfolded over time. At a minimum we all know it takes time.
No doubt not the more specific answer you were hoping for, but somewhere here is your answer as best you can figure it out yourself. I could go on, but since it's about time for me to get on with preparing our BSB, I'll leave it here for now. Until maybe again tomorrow. Thanks.
What I see is all you note being a futile endeavor.
Again...because of the subjectivity of what are "better/best judgements and practices".
In fact...my personal view is that for all humans have supposedly "progressed" and "evolved"...we have just traded common slavery/racism, gender oppression, and the like (all of which still exists)...for other things just as bad, if not worse.
Such as things that have caused the environmental destruction of this planet, and the greatest genocide in the history of mankind...all because of the same selfishness, greed, and self-exaltation that caused all the other aforementioned negative things.
And many people are currently fighting for "The Right" to carry out all those environmental devastating and genocidal things...with many considering them "virtuous" and actually criticize some of the Religious for contesting those things.
And what objective way is there to determine, "...what notions we should accept and adopt and/or what notions to reject and leave behind."?
Who gets to determine? What basis should be used as a metric to determine what the "best practices" are and "what is important/not important"?
What is "showing love" to another person/community is a good place to start....
What is "showing love" to another person/community is a good place to start....
Yes...I agree.
In fact...there is a character in the most epic & prolific Book ever written in human history that summed up *The Philosophical Formula For The Best World Possible* in just three words: "Love Each Other".
Though there will be great differences as to what that looks like in application.
What I see is all you note being a futile endeavor.
Again...because of the subjectivity of what are "better/best judgements and practices".
In fact...my personal view is that for all humans have supposedly "progressed" and "evolved"...we have just traded common slavery/racism, gender oppression, and the like (all of which still exists)...for other things just as bad, if not worse.
Such as things that have caused the environmental destruction of this planet, and the greatest genocide in the history of mankind...all because of the same selfishness, greed, and self-exaltation that caused all the other aforementioned negative things.
And many people are currently fighting for "The Right" to carry out all those environmental devastating and genocidal things...with many considering them "virtuous" and actually criticize some of the Religious for contesting those things.
Fact is, there aren't many things worse than what we've already endured. You say that we've traded slavery, racism, and gender oppression for things "just as bad if not worse"
I call BS.
I'll simply ask if you would rather live in modern times - or would you rather live in the 1800s? How about during the Napoleonic era? How about the Dark Ages?
There's always a "Negative Nancy" that "pooh poohs" the advances we have made by claiming because we don't live in a utopia, things are "just as bad if not worse."
I think you may need to study some history. Not the nicety-nice kind of history where half of it is censored so as not to upset, offend, or shock anyone, but the real deal. I have no idea what your gender/ethnicity/nationality is, but if you're a straight white male, it's easy to act as though living today is "just as bad if not worse" than it was in yesteryear. But if you are literally ANYTHING but a straight while male, you'd understand how far we've come. I honestly can't think of many things worse than slavery, to tell you the truth. You say is still exists. I say no it does not. Sure, there is what is called euphemistically "human trafficking," but the days of any nation anywhere sanctioning slavery and openly practicing it has been over for a long time.
For almost 500 years people "of color" have been abducted from their homes, shipped overseas, and forced to work for white masters in abhorrant conditions. Native populations - whether you're a Native American or an Australian Aborigine or someone in between have been treated worse than most people treat animals. Women were forced to be utterly dependant on their husbands without even the right to vote. Even though blacks were considered sub-human (3/5ths human if I remember the Constitution correctly) even THEY received the right to vote 50 years before women did. So what the hell does that make women? 1/5th human?
I could literally write a book on the horrible practices of yesteryear - not just racism, prejudice, hated, xenophobia, and the lack of freedom and liberty shown to anyone who wasn't "mainstream" - but also the terrible things governments and religions did to people. Could you imagine today a father hoisting his 4 year-old son onto his shoulders - so he could get a better view of a man being, quite literally, torn apart, his internal organs being spread out on a table for everyone to see? It was quite a fun event when there was an execution in medieval Europe - and for the next 6 months as you rode in and out of the town, you got to see the man's rotting decapitated head on a spike warning you what will happen if you step out of line.
Oh, medieval ... that was hundreds of years ago! Right? Funny how as late as the 1950s, huge crowds would gather to watch the lynching of a black person. I remember reading a story of a 14 year-old boy in Texas who was helping a white woman with her groceries. And because his hand accidentally brushed up against hers, the poor kid was lynched. Some 30,000 people showed up to watch it - they even sold pop corn and drinks. They treated it like a carnival.
Yes, what is happening to the environment is terrible - but it wasn't intentional. Only the worst deniers and profiteers still claim it's all a hoax, but they're becoming mere nut jobs howling in the wilderness. No one is listening. Unfortunately, you can't change overnight - and no one is going to accept giving up modern technology.
What exactly was the "greatest genocide" of Mankind?
At any rate - honestly, Gldn - I do get frustrated with people who somehow think there was some perfect time in history - and only if we could go back to those days! To be equally honest, this is the best time to be alive for the greatest number of people. We have not traded bad for worse - that is the position of people who are either completely unware of the horrors of the past - or people who simply don't care.
There are more people living a middle class life style than ever before. There are only a handful of nations that are not openly democratic. We are living in the longest period of peace in human history (this is measured by the number of people directly affected by war). Most nations have universal healthcare, programs to feed the poor, and ... well ... I won't sit here and list all the benefits of living today as compared to even 100 years ago. In 1923, the average life expectancy was only 56.1 years. In some countries, that has increased by some 30 years.
Humans have a lot of bad habits. But you don't judge a civilization based on the worst of its citizens. Nor do you judge the planet by the worst of its nations. The way to ascertain whether we're progressing and evolving or backsliding is to ask yourself: How much evil does a civilization accept? How much evil does the world accept?
Ergo, we should not claim that we've traded bad for worse simply because slavery still exists. Because once slavery existed as the national policy for nations all over the world. Slavery, as one would imagine it, no longer exists in any country.
The problem today is the erroneous use of words. Unfortunately, certain words become popular and then begin to lose their meaning. Such words include "genocide," "terrorism," and yes, "slavery." The definition of those words (among others) begin to get mushy and fluffy, expanding to include far more than their original intent. The modern definition of slavery even includes military conscription now - so if you've ever been drafted, you're technically a slave. Personally I think these kinds of defintions are bogus and hides the REAL problems beneath a lot of over-inflated numbers.
Whatever the case, I've beaten this horse to death, so I'll just shut up now.
Fact is, there aren't many things worse than what we've already endured. You say that we've traded slavery, racism, and gender oppression for things "just as bad if not worse"
I call BS.
I'll simply ask if you would rather live in modern times - or would you rather live in the 1800s? How about during the Napoleonic era? How about the Dark Ages?
There's always a "Negative Nancy" that "pooh poohs" the advances we have made by claiming because we don't live in a utopia, things are "just as bad if not worse."
I think you may need to study some history. Not the nicety-nice kind of history where half of it is censored so as not to upset, offend, or shock anyone, but the real deal. I have no idea what your gender/ethnicity/nationality is, but if you're a straight white male, it's easy to act as though living today is "just as bad if not worse" than it was in yesteryear. But if you are literally ANYTHING but a straight while male, you'd understand how far we've come. I honestly can't think of many things worse than slavery, to tell you the truth. You say is still exists. I say no it does not. Sure, there is what is called euphemistically "human trafficking," but the days of any nation anywhere sanctioning slavery and openly practicing it has been over for a long time.
For almost 500 years people "of color" have been abducted from their homes, shipped overseas, and forced to work for white masters in abhorrant conditions. Native populations - whether you're a Native American or an Australian Aborigine or someone in between have been treated worse than most people treat animals. Women were forced to be utterly dependant on their husbands without even the right to vote. Even though blacks were considered sub-human (3/5ths human if I remember the Constitution correctly) even THEY received the right to vote 50 years before women did. So what the hell does that make women? 1/5th human?
I could literally write a book on the horrible practices of yesteryear - not just racism, prejudice, hated, xenophobia, and the lack of freedom and liberty shown to anyone who wasn't "mainstream" - but also the terrible things governments and religions did to people. Could you imagine today a father hoisting his 4 year-old son onto his shoulders - so he could get a better view of a man being, quite literally, torn apart, his internal organs being spread out on a table for everyone to see? It was quite a fun event when there was an execution in medieval Europe - and for the next 6 months as you rode in and out of the town, you got to see the man's rotting decapitated head on a spike warning you what will happen if you step out of line.
Oh, medieval ... that was hundreds of years ago! Right? Funny how as late as the 1950s, huge crowds would gather to watch the lynching of a black person. I remember reading a story of a 14 year-old boy in Texas who was helping a white woman with her groceries. And because his hand accidentally brushed up against hers, the poor kid was lynched. Some 30,000 people showed up to watch it - they even sold pop corn and drinks. They treated it like a carnival.
Yes, what is happening to the environment is terrible - but it wasn't intentional. Only the worst deniers and profiteers still claim it's all a hoax, but they're becoming mere nut jobs howling in the wilderness. No one is listening. Unfortunately, you can't change overnight - and no one is going to accept giving up modern technology.
What exactly was the "greatest genocide" of Mankind?
At any rate - honestly, Gldn - I do get frustrated with people who somehow think there was some perfect time in history - and only if we could go back to those days! To be equally honest, this is the best time to be alive for the greatest number of people. We have not traded bad for worse - that is the position of people who are either completely unware of the horrors of the past - or people who simply don't care.
There are more people living a middle class life style than ever before. There are only a handful of nations that are not openly democratic. We are living in the longest period of peace in human history (this is measured by the number of people directly affected by war). Most nations have universal healthcare, programs to feed the poor, and ... well ... I won't sit here and list all the benefits of living today as compared to even 100 years ago. In 1923, the average life expectancy was only 56.1 years. In some countries, that has increased by some 30 years.
Humans have a lot of bad habits. But you don't judge a civilization based on the worst of its citizens. Nor do you judge the planet by the worst of its nations. The way to ascertain whether we're progressing and evolving or backsliding is to ask yourself: How much evil does a civilization accept? How much evil does the world accept?
Ergo, we should not claim that we've traded bad for worse simply because slavery still exists. Because once slavery existed as the national policy for nations all over the world. Slavery, as one would imagine it, no longer exists in any country.
The problem today is the erroneous use of words. Unfortunately, certain words become popular and then begin to lose their meaning. Such words include "genocide," "terrorism," and yes, "slavery." The definition of those words (among others) begin to get mushy and fluffy, expanding to include far more than their original intent. The modern definition of slavery even includes military conscription now - so if you've ever been drafted, you're technically a slave. Personally I think these kinds of defintions are bogus and hides the REAL problems beneath a lot of over-inflated numbers.
Whatever the case, I've beaten this horse to death, so I'll just shut up now.
Fact is, there aren't many things worse than what we've already endured. You say that we've traded slavery, racism, and gender oppression for things "just as bad if not worse"
I call BS.
I'll simply ask if you would rather live in modern times - or would you rather live in the 1800s? How about during the Napoleonic era? How about the Dark Ages?
There's always a "Negative Nancy" that "pooh poohs" the advances we have made by claiming because we don't live in a utopia, things are "just as bad if not worse."
I think you may need to study some history. Not the nicety-nice kind of history where half of it is censored so as not to upset, offend, or shock anyone, but the real deal. I have no idea what your gender/ethnicity/nationality is, but if you're a straight white male, it's easy to act as though living today is "just as bad if not worse" than it was in yesteryear. But if you are literally ANYTHING but a straight while male, you'd understand how far we've come. I honestly can't think of many things worse than slavery, to tell you the truth. You say is still exists. I say no it does not. Sure, there is what is called euphemistically "human trafficking," but the days of any nation anywhere sanctioning slavery and openly practicing it has been over for a long time.
For almost 500 years people "of color" have been abducted from their homes, shipped overseas, and forced to work for white masters in abhorrant conditions. Native populations - whether you're a Native American or an Australian Aborigine or someone in between have been treated worse than most people treat animals. Women were forced to be utterly dependant on their husbands without even the right to vote. Even though blacks were considered sub-human (3/5ths human if I remember the Constitution correctly) even THEY received the right to vote 50 years before women did. So what the hell does that make women? 1/5th human?
I could literally write a book on the horrible practices of yesteryear - not just racism, prejudice, hated, xenophobia, and the lack of freedom and liberty shown to anyone who wasn't "mainstream" - but also the terrible things governments and religions did to people. Could you imagine today a father hoisting his 4 year-old son onto his shoulders - so he could get a better view of a man being, quite literally, torn apart, his internal organs being spread out on a table for everyone to see? It was quite a fun event when there was an execution in medieval Europe - and for the next 6 months as you rode in and out of the town, you got to see the man's rotting decapitated head on a spike warning you what will happen if you step out of line.
Oh, medieval ... that was hundreds of years ago! Right? Funny how as late as the 1950s, huge crowds would gather to watch the lynching of a black person. I remember reading a story of a 14 year-old boy in Texas who was helping a white woman with her groceries. And because his hand accidentally brushed up against hers, the poor kid was lynched. Some 30,000 people showed up to watch it - they even sold pop corn and drinks. They treated it like a carnival.
Yes, what is happening to the environment is terrible - but it wasn't intentional. Only the worst deniers and profiteers still claim it's all a hoax, but they're becoming mere nut jobs howling in the wilderness. No one is listening. Unfortunately, you can't change overnight - and no one is going to accept giving up modern technology.
What exactly was the "greatest genocide" of Mankind?
At any rate - honestly, Gldn - I do get frustrated with people who somehow think there was some perfect time in history - and only if we could go back to those days! To be equally honest, this is the best time to be alive for the greatest number of people. We have not traded bad for worse - that is the position of people who are either completely unware of the horrors of the past - or people who simply don't care.
There are more people living a middle class life style than ever before. There are only a handful of nations that are not openly democratic. We are living in the longest period of peace in human history (this is measured by the number of people directly affected by war). Most nations have universal healthcare, programs to feed the poor, and ... well ... I won't sit here and list all the benefits of living today as compared to even 100 years ago. In 1923, the average life expectancy was only 56.1 years. In some countries, that has increased by some 30 years.
Humans have a lot of bad habits. But you don't judge a civilization based on the worst of its citizens. Nor do you judge the planet by the worst of its nations. The way to ascertain whether we're progressing and evolving or backsliding is to ask yourself: How much evil does a civilization accept? How much evil does the world accept?
Ergo, we should not claim that we've traded bad for worse simply because slavery still exists. Because once slavery existed as the national policy for nations all over the world. Slavery, as one would imagine it, no longer exists in any country.
The problem today is the erroneous use of words. Unfortunately, certain words become popular and then begin to lose their meaning. Such words include "genocide," "terrorism," and yes, "slavery." The definition of those words (among others) begin to get mushy and fluffy, expanding to include far more than their original intent. The modern definition of slavery even includes military conscription now - so if you've ever been drafted, you're technically a slave. Personally I think these kinds of defintions are bogus and hides the REAL problems beneath a lot of over-inflated numbers.
Whatever the case, I've beaten this horse to death, so I'll just shut up now.
We have very, very different views. But, that's okay.
I would have no problem existing at any time.
I actually would have preferred to exist before the invention of any sort of transportation beyond that which was drawn by animals.
I know you don't agree...but I believe "the greatest genocide" is something no longer allowed to be discussed on this forum. I'm sure you can figure it out from that.
We still do all the horrible things you describe...now, by the tens of millions per year.
We do it the way humankind has typically done it...you deem certain humans "nonpersons" or "lesser" in some way. So, then they could be enslaved, sold as property, persecuted in any way, or even killed...and it could be justified and excused, because it really wasn't a "person", or it was a "lesser entity", one was doing that to.
The world has sunken into that mentality deeper than ever as of late. We just have better hygiene, HVAC, and medical advances that can ease some discomfort and buy you some extra time.
But humankind is no less barbaric, depraved and evil...nor does it inflict any less death on others than it ever has.
And the worst of that evil is widely accepted...even embraced.
We have very, very different views. But, that's okay.
I would have no problem existing at any time.
I actually would have preferred to exist before the invention of any sort of transportation beyond that which was drawn by animals.
I know you don't agree...but I believe "the greatest genocide" is something no longer allowed to be discussed on this forum. I'm sure you can figure it out from that.
We still do all the horrible things you describe...now, by the tens of millions per year.
We do it the way humankind has typically done it...you deem certain humans "nonpersons" or "lesser" in some way. So, then they could be enslaved, sold as property, persecuted in any way, or even killed...and it could be justified and excused, because it really wasn't a "person", or it was a "lesser entity", one was doing that to.
The world has sunken into that mentality deeper than ever as of late. We just have better hygiene, HVAC, and medical advances that can ease some discomfort and buy you some extra time.
But humankind is no less barbaric, depraved and evil...nor does it inflict any less death on others than it ever has.
And the worst of that evil is widely accepted...even embraced.
We do it all still and do it more efficiently. Just today i learnt Phizer stopped manufacturing a drug for children suffering from cancer because … it was no longer profitable. It costs 5 dollars. But it has been superseded by drugs that cost 5 times as much. It is still effective but the profit is not so much. So they stopped making it while children are suffering.
There is a drug shortage in America. I thought that happens only in 3rd world.
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