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Originally Posted by sanspeur As per your poll I claimed only that I do not believe a god exists
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdaelectro
Yes you did.
That is not a poll choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Poll
Do you believe that there is no god?
Yes
No...
jdaelectro,
Do you see a big difference between "Do you believe there is no god? Yes" and "I do not believe a god exists"? Or, stated in the form of a statement, "I believe there is no god" versus "I do not believe a god exists". It looks to me they are basically saying the same thing for the purposes of this discussion.* In any case, neither statement is asserting knowledge.
Yet, in your original post after the poll you said, "If yes, then what proof/evidence do you have for this claim to knowledge?" By responding "yes" to the poll as presently worded, no one is claiming to have any knowledge. Your poll asks about a person's belief, not an assertion of fact.
* If we really wanted to get technical, it depends on whether the phrase "do not believe" was intended to mean the absence of belief or the presence of disbelief, but that is a sidebar issue, as neither statement indicates the claim of knowledge.
Last edited by Hueffenhardt; 07-06-2012 at 02:53 PM..
Not true. You claim that there is no god. That is a claim to knowledge. A claim to knowledge requires proof of that knowledge.
then must i prove santa claus does not exist ?
as to the OP , i dont know if a god exist but i most certainly do not believe in the kind of god which is potrayed by all the major religons , i.e , an all loving and mercifull personal god
What the....The poll question that YOU wrote is "Do you BELIEVE there is no god?"
Don't blame me if this poll is not going the way you thought it would....You've been hung by your own petard....LOL
What the....The poll question that YOU wrote is "Do you BELIEVE there is no god?"
Don't blame me if this poll is not going the way you thought it would....You've been hung by your own petard....LOL
When did I blame anyone for anything?
Anyways, I'll stop beating around the bush and show you where I am going with this>>>
A common misconception among atheists, is that they have no burden of proof. This is illogical. The agnostic is the only one that makes no knowledge claim. Since the atheist, say's there is no god, then the burden of proof is equal to that of the theist.
Not true. You claim that there is no god. That is a claim to knowledge. A claim to knowledge requires proof of that knowledge.
Prove to me there IS a Santa Claus. I'm waiting. No? Why? Because there's absolutely no rational evidence, and a man esp. a fat one, can't really fit down all those chimneys, and as well, how DOES he get to all those houses in one 12 h night?
OK then. My point is proven: you cannot provide one inkling, one iota, one scintilla of any plausible evidence for your particular God entity, out of the literal thousands of alternate gods that other believers and paradigms also insist are real! So their versions as are exactly as plausible and defensible as yours.
I, on the other hand, do believe in all the scientific research that has categorically debunked all the ancient bronze-age claims for miracles and "insta-poof" creationism, and the utterly absurd Genesis and Noah's Ark fantasy stories. Yes, I'll accept that those had a reasonable reason to exist back then, but it astounds me that modern educated men and women still cling to such outdated and disproven story tales.
If you still wish to deny all the studies and now-known facts that put such wild stories totally to bed, and insist on it all, out of a hugely needy personal requirement to have such an invented savior looking out for you upon your final deathbed, then so be it. Just know, in your heart, that it's all been disproven, and with complete confidence. Oh, and then look at the results of your own survey!
A common misconception among atheists, is that they have no burden of proof. This is illogical. The agnostic is the only one that makes no knowledge claim. Since the atheist, say's there is no god, then the burden of proof is equal to that of the theist.
At least you are consistent, as you are wrong once again...An atheist makes no claim of knowing there is no god...That there is or is not a god is something that cannot be known...Atheists are way too smart to fall for your troll trickery...
Regarding the burden of proof...It falls to the one making outrageous claims...Not believing there is a god is not even a claim, but a personal opinion..
William Lane Craig's opinion is less than worthless.... Atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.
The problem with this is that the burden of proof is on the one postulating a claim. It isn't up to the disbeliever to prove such a thing is nonexistent. For example, if I were to flip a quarter and then say that the reason it was tails was because a Magical Quarter Gnome controls whether it is heads or tails then you would expect me to provide evidence to support such a claim. If I can't provide sufficient evidence to prove the existence of the Magical Quarter Gnome then you would most likely think my claims are a load of hogwash and that there is no such thing as the Magical Quarter Gnome. While there may be a slight possibility the Magical Quarter exists, it would be irrational to believe such a thing is anything more than nonexistent. Similarly, it isn't up to the atheist to provide proof there is no god. Theists are the ones making the positive assertion and therefore the onus is on them to prove their claims are true. Most atheists aren't saying they know for certain there is no god, only that there isn't sufficient evidence that merits belief that a god exists.
You know, I knew where this was going from the title of the thread. You know how? Because if you ask an atheist to explain what it is they do or do not believe, you generally get an answer in the form of, "I do not believe in a god", not "I believe there is no God."
If you see the second phrase you can be fairly certain it is a theist trying to back non-believers into a logical corner, so they can insist that non-theism is an active belief, and as such is as irrational as theism.
The problem with this is it is a classic strawman. I very carefully choose the first statement because I am aware of the logical inconsistencies of the second. For the most part, all of us atheists are, and we avoid it. To try and insist I am saying something I am not, as in the clearly agenda driven poll or by insisting that the two statements must be equivalent because, "You gotta believe something..." is really a dishonest and reprehensible debating technique. You are never going to get far in a debate, argument, or discussion by arguing against a misrepresentation of the other person.
Jdaelectro, please take this to heart. On this thread and in countless others, many of us non-thieists have tried to explain to you theists what we do and don't believe. If you want to discuss the logic of our point of view, please be so good as to actually start from it, not from some caricature. You don't have to agree with us, but the least you could do is listen.
-NoCapo
P.S. This is also the reason my posts tend to be very long and very wordy. I have learned that when discussing these things with theists, you have to be incredibly precise in your language.
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