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Looking back at the OP pointing up things that Jesus 'got wrong' about the Bible . . .
It isn't Jesus who got things wrong, but the evangelists who wrote Jesus' script. This ongoing idea that the Gospels record substantially what Jesus said and did is ubiquitously taken as a given, but such an assumption is unjustified.
The monumental contradictions and discrepancies are the clearest possible indication of textual invention..
Sorry but I need PROOF that would hold up in a court of law that the writers of the gospels did not write what Jesus did and said. I find it amazing that the modern day historical revisionist would want us to believe their invented ideas without any actual facts
I've given you my case which I believe would hold up in a court of law or at least a historians' conference. You dismissed it on the grounds that I have mentioned - that anything obviously the same was the same and differences did not matter. If they were so different that they could not be the same event witnessed, then they had to be different events. Or if they were totally different but clearly at the same time, they had to be combined into a single event.
This would not (as I said at the time) hold up in a court of law or at a historians' conference, but since you make yourself judge and jury here (as indeed I have to be on my side) there is no way I can convince you so any further attempt would be pointless.
I shall however, be glad to discuss with those willing to listen.
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Originally Posted by whoppers
Likewise! I can't do it either, for shame..
Neither can I you for an erudite post with some good references. So we is quits.
Jesus could only speak to people at their level of comprehention.
God teaches me at my level of comprhention.
Using terms and comparisons people identify with make it easier to communicate .
Jesus used farming because it is a commonly understood profession.
Their were issues Jesus dd not teach the public, but reserved for the disciples only, and even then, they had a hard time digesting it.
As for Deamons , they are very real, so much so that Satan worship is growing because of it .
Having had personal encounters driving them out ,as well as dealing with those the have mistakenly given them enterence into their lives and homes.
I have friends that have literally been phisically pushed out of a house by unseen forces , and even sciense had proven that things exist beyon our spectrum of light capabilites, just as there are sounds, only a dog can hear.
There is so much evidence against athiesm the list is endless.
Beyond all that ,
God gives me guidance through out the day and answers prayer ,often teaching me how to pray.
the list of miricals and alterations of weather and other natural phenominon ,God has shown me favor , not sure why, but He does none the less.
I believe in Jesus thuroughly, and as to His promises , read the things He said, not men's assumptions afterward.
God is not obligated to run around correcting misinformation, among those that do not practice wanting His personal input. If you want it , it is going to cost you giving up sin of self government to His government.
Eusebius - you're missing the Burden of Proof again.
The character of the Gospels as the exact opposite of non-interested, non-biased historical "biographies" has already been demonstrated - and the onus of demonstrating that they were entirely reliable historical documentary biographies recording the exact words of Jesus falls upon the person making the minority view claim. That would be you, in this case.
Have you read Richard A. Burridge's important work What Are The Gospels? A Comparison With Graeco-Roman Biography (Eerdman's, 2nd ed. 2004)? Before trying to demonstrate that the Gospels were actual historical biographies, it might be helpful to read the work of someone who has already investigated that in great detail. Lacking that, a simple walk through what constitutes the Historical Method will present some guidelines.
But how many times must this be said? It's already been said many times - the answer and historical conclusions haven't changed since that time.
Here is an example of a proof that the Gospel writers did not (at least in all instances) record the exact words of Jesus.
A perfect example of the Gospels recording something Jesus probably never spoke can be found in his conversation with Nicodemus the Pharisee. First of all - if you've been reading the posts (or are even faintly aware of the time period) you will have noticed that Jesus' primary language was most likely Aramaic; that he might have possessed some knowledge of Hebrew; but that Greek was almost definitely not a language he spoke or understood. Now we can move on to the example.
In the Gospel of John, in chapter 3,
Now there was a Pharisee name Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish Sanhedrin, who came to him at night.
"Rabbi," he said to Jesus, "we know that you are a teacher who has come from God; for unless God is with him, no one can perform the signs that you perform."
(John 3:1-2, AB, R.E. Brown)
They then engage in a conversation over certain matters, and most likely speaking in Aramaic. Jesus replies to Nicodemus' question:
Jesus gave him this answer:
"I solemnly assure you,
no one can see the Kingdom of God
without being begotten from above."
"How can a man be born again once he is old?" retorted Nicodemus. "Can he re-enter his mother's womb and be born all over again?"
(John 3:3-4)
Nicodemus misunderstands Jesus' reply. What causes this confusion? It is found in "without being begotten from above" and the the specific "from above", which in Greek is anōthen. But why does this present a problem? It is because anōthen can mean either "again" or "from above". So what Jesus says could be understood either as:
"I solemnly assure you,
no one can see the Kingdom of God
without being begotten again."
or
"I solemnly assure you,
no one can see the Kingdom of God
without being begotten from above."
Which is why Nicodemus misunderstands Jesus' meaning of "from above" and says
"How can a man be born again once he is old?" retorted Nicodemus. "Can he re-enter his mother's womb and be born all over again?"
It makes for a humorous story that demonstrates Jesus' superior understanding over that of Nicodemus the Pharisee, who Jesus later insults when he says "How can this happen?...You hold the office of teacher of Israel, and still you don't understand these things?" (v. 9) The insult is not surprising, as John's Gospel is the most Anti-Semitic of the four canonical gospels - it being the latest one written.
So how does this help me demonstrate my point? It is because this double-meaning is only available in Greek! In Aramaic and Hebrew the equivalent word to the Greek anōthen does not contain a double-meaning or any ambiguity. Only in Greek!
Which means that since Jesus and Nicodemus were speaking in Aramaic originally (there is absolutely NO reason for them to have been speaking in Greek to each other - even if either of them were able to), there is no possible earthly way for this conversation to have gone exactly as the author of the Gospel portrays it. It only works in Greek - the misunderstanding of the word anōthen and it's double-meaning by Nicodemus; it does not work if John is reportedly recording an authentic conversation in Aramaic or Hebrew between the two. So the obvious (and widely accepted conclusion) is that while Jesus may have spoken with Nicodemus, these particular words never passed between them in the manner in which the author of the Gospel of John records them. This is a very famous example that every first year New Testament student has to wrestle with. For references, see virtually any commentary that digs into the Greek linguistics of the Gospel and is not interested in suppressing various details that may detract from conservative beliefs.
This is just one (and the most wellknown) example of textual issues in the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. There are others, but this should suffice for the moment.
Jesus could only speak to people at their level of comprehention.
God teaches me at my level of comprhention.
Using terms and comparisons people identify with make it easier to communicate .
Jesus used farming because it is a commonly understood profession.
You are correct - he was speaking to rural people, for the most part.
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Originally Posted by arleigh
Their were issues Jesus dd not teach the public, but reserved for the disciples only, and even then, they had a hard time digesting it.
Yes, the disciples were quite the morons, weren't they? It's a good thing that THEY (supposedly) were the ones in charge of writing down the story of Jesus. GOD HELP US ALL....
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Originally Posted by arleigh
As for Deamons , they are very real, so much so that Satan worship is growing because of it .
Having had personal encounters driving them out ,as well as dealing with those the have mistakenly given them enterence into their lives and homes.
I have friends that have literally been phisically pushed out of a house by unseen forces
Are you sure they weren't behind on their rent, and it wasn't the landlord?
But in all seriousness, I can TOTALLY see how you could confuse epilepsy with demonic possession if you were entirely unfamiliar with modern medical practices. Or mental illness, as another example. You ARE familiar with modern medical practice - aren't you?
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Originally Posted by arleigh
I believe in Jesus thuroughly, and as to His promises , read the things He said, not men's assumptions afterward.
God is not obligated to run around correcting misinformation, among those that do not practice wanting His personal input. If you want it , it is going to cost you giving up sin of self government to His government.
Unfortunately, Jesus never wrote a single scrap of his sayings down himself - so we are kind of dependent on those unreliable "men" and their "assumptive" writings. No way around that.
I am quite aware of modern medicine and do my shair of studdy in psycology and related issues .
However there is a distinct difference between mental illness/injuries or deseases and demonic opression or posession.
The person being pushed out of the house, was infact an employee of the house hold, comissioned to regularly clean the two story home .
It was among 3 that had in the past, been used for seaonances and other practices realted, because of the frequency of paranormal activity. A figure of what appered to be a little girl would be seen in the homes and around the property.
These buildings have sence been demolished or removed to build a park along the lake at Bigh Bear Lake California .
During the renovation of the property to watch over the equipment needed a night watchman and another friend of mine (it's a small town) Was that watchman living in his own motor home on the premisis .
Often during the nite focets would get turned on ,and he would have to get up and turn them off again and again .
When he left the place, the occurances quit happening in his motor home .
There are many stories concerning this spicific area by people who have no knowledge of any of this or of one another.
This among others is only a pest, but others I have encountered are far more dangerous .
I lived and a very small cabin as a teen , and felt this unusual uneasyness come over me.
I don't know how I knew because I had never been told nor taught about spirits ever before, nothing to even remotely prime my interest or knowledge of how to deal with them.
Never the less I knew I was not alone and what was in my cabin with me was not good at all , so I did the only thing I could think of doing , I opened all the doors and windows and commanded in all the anger I could muster ," In the name of Jesus get out of my house forever,now". and it left . A few days later it returned but I cast it out again ,and then it never returned . this was back in 1966.
About 10 years ago I met some folk that had lived in a cabin across the street during that time I had not known then , because no one ever stayed in that cabin very long , I never knew why untill now .
They explained to me that they would wake up during the nite, and the house was warming up and could smell something down stairs , and discover the stove was lit up . So they shut off the four burners and check all the doors and windows, and no break in, nothing taken, and not be abel to sleep through the nite very well .
After it happened a few more times they moved out .
Another insadent several miles from my place another friend living in a 2 story had electrical issues and asked me to check it out.( I worked in construction most of my early years, and did every thing from foundation to finish)
They'd all be in bed asleep and the TV would come on and this was long before radio remote control tv existed( at least for any one I knew). they came to the point of unplugging it, before going to bed ,but the irritation they were getting from lighting going off and on during the nite ,and there was nothing wrong mechaniclly with the lighting new bulbs or old ,switches and breakers replaced by professionals . People are asleep and no one is walking aound or moving any thing changing the shift of the house as if it could . I looked for any mechanical cause that could explain what was going on . but there was none to blame.
Eventually they moved and the problem did not fallow them .
In the city,my dear friends son got involved with kids drinking to demons in a cerimony,and acquired a demon that only he could see, and it would hang on his leg like a monkey. often doing the boys bidding hurting other children and writing on the chalk board behind the teacher's back, in front of the whole class. there are a lot of witnesses to these events.
It took some time to get him freed from that demon ,but now, like the kid in the movie the sixth sense, he is no longer nieve as many of you are.
And though he is losed from the critter, he still sees it .
They ( deamons) don't like letting go of the attention.
This is but a fraction of the insadents I have encountered through out my life time , so don't let the lack of expirence in your life be the guide to undrstanding.
You don't need to jump off a cliff, to know that you will come to a sudden stop at the bottom.
I have personally expirenced healing as well as successfully prayed for healings in my presence and over long distance with and with out the knowledge of the recipents.
You know air exists right . How ?
you feel wind, but most gasses will produce that .
you breathe, and understand the exchange in your lungs getting into the bloodstream .
But you can't see it unless it is contaminated and that all you see is the contamination.
You have live on it all your life but take it for granted unless you go swimming ,or are elderly or injured and need assistance .
Do you not like God, beause you cannot control Him ? He does not fit under your microscope,light filter, sound amplifier, other spectrum analizer, or some device of curent design ?
The god you emagine , is way too small.
If you will , sense you want to think in more sufisticated terms. Think of earth as a molicule in god's body .
Like David said , there is no where you can hide from Him.
That place you make decisions, God is fully aware of, as well as the things you say and do .
So one whom is manipulative ,or a liar, or deceptive ,will have a hard time with God altogether .
Adam's taste of the tree of knowledge, effected all man kind .
But the illusion of having some form of knowledge does not do one a favor, in God's econemy.
God does a lot of extraordenary things, that is His nature. Look at creation, and the wonder of it all . The odds of this earths survival are phenominal, looking at all the floating debris in the universe slinging past us.
We should be greatful.
Point is God does take an interest ,because a few, out of the billions of people have potential.
Borne from above also means to carry /be supported . if you ar looking for another term.
And this carries true for the John 3;3,4,5,6,
Pauls "new creation" inturpretation I think is noble, but not accurate entirely.2corinthians 5;17,
There is a preexistant capacity with in man that is dormant or dead in a sense .rebirth is a quickening of that dormant spirit. Some are still borne,in which they make a pretense to go through the motions but their heart is really not in it.
Many death bed conversions are this way.
Some are retarded borne but refuse to mature and develop, Peter Pan as it were. These use God to their own advantage but no real comitment is involved .
Some develop some but limited, due to coaching or constant trouble in their lives that puts them to their knees often and God is always rescuing them.
Many are users that know the power of Jesus name, and get a lot of attention ammong other believers, but do not walk in obedience yet.
And the smallest group are those that walk in obedience to one degree or another depending on how much academic influence or the influence of others , diswades their action to a directive.
I would considder my self an adolesant or less, in this area.
Age has 0 ,nothing to do with it .
it is an attitude of obedience to God on a personal level ,not limited to scriptures , which by the way none or few, of the old testament prophets had.
Because It has always been God's design to be man's teacher himself, not the tree of knowledge.
I like that , beause it opens the personal world to greater posibilities than our limited perspectives.
I always feel a bit at a loss with anecdotes of supernatural occurrences presented as proof that 'It's all true' when in fact I know on evidential grounds it can't be.
The gospel methods of curing people of fits or whatever by prayer and fasting is considered by those with expertise in medicine to be unsound medically. So anecdotes of this sort of thing occurring fail to persuade me.
I always feel a bit at a loss with anecdotes of supernatural occurrences presented as proof that 'It's all true' when in fact I know on evidential grounds it can't be.
The gospel methods of curing people of fits or whatever by prayer and fasting is considered by those with expertise in medicine to be unsound medically. So anecdotes of this sort of thing occurring fail to persuade me.
That seems a tad circular. You know it can't be true so it's not true.
Yeah if you agree with the axiom that all things within the Universe have purely natural causes it can't be true, but asserting that axiom isn't proving it.
The other thing, and you're not alone in this so no sweat, might be a confusion between the magical and the miraculous. In several ways magic is more like science. Magic says if you do a method right (incantation, potion, whatever) you get a predicted result. Miracles don't really work that way. It's not a matter of humans repeating an action and consistently getting a result thereby proving it can be done or is real. Christianity isn't a system of magic. We're not, not usually anyway, saying the right combination of prayer and fasting always causes a predicted result. Or that we as individuals can "work" a supernatural force the way a machine works a natural one.
Anecdotes are not the basis of science, but that an event is singular is not proof that it never happened at all.
That seems a tad circular. You know it can't be true so it's not true.
No, that's not it...it's more that it isn't clear that it what it is claimed to be so we don't buy it -yet. And yet you have a point. We do have feel that extraordinary claims require some extraordinary proof.
I don't say it can't be or isn't true, but it might not be and if it is, we don't know what the thing signifies...hey, haven't I said that just recently?
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Yeah if you agree with the axiom that all things within the Universe have purely natural causes it can't be true, but asserting that axiom isn't proving it.
Well, that is the natural - materialist default which is hotly contensted i agree but that it is as valid a standpoint as 'there could be a supernatural effect'.
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The other thing, and you're not alone in this so no sweat, might be a confusion between the magical and the miraculous. In several ways magic is more like science. Magic says if you do a method right (incantation, potion, whatever) you get a predicted result. Miracles don't really work that way. It's not a matter of humans repeating an action and consistently getting a result thereby proving it can be done or is real. Christianity isn't a system of magic. We're not, not usually anyway, saying the right combination of prayer and fasting always causes a predicted result. Or that we as individuals can "work" a supernatural force the way a machine works a natural one.
Yes...of course one can argue that miracles has a mechanism though hardly one that can be published, duplicated and peer reviewed whereas 'magic' has a supposed process of potions and spells or rites but nobody has any idea what makes it work. Either way, neither have the credibility (and it is a credibility that religion and cult craves) that science has.
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Anecdotes are not the basis of science, but that an event is singular is not proof that it never happened at all.
True, but an anecdote is the starting point of questioning and research, not the end of it.
I always feel a bit at a loss with anecdotes of supernatural occurrences presented as proof that 'It's all true' when in fact I know on evidential grounds it can't be.
The gospel methods of curing people of fits or whatever by prayer and fasting is considered by those with expertise in medicine to be unsound medically. So anecdotes of this sort of thing occurring fail to persuade me.
Me too, and I work in medicine, remember?
And we have no such thing as "demonic possession" in the DSM-IV, and it is not going to be in the DSM-V either. We have no such diagnosis as "demonic possession" ...why? because THERE IS NO SUCH THING!!!
I too have heard sensationalistic tales of demons running people out of their houses. I have never seen it, never talked to anyone who actually haad it happen, never seen any PROOF of measuarable evidence of it, but I have "heard of it" (I heard of some guy in ancient Rome coming back from the dead too, but again, no proof)
Fact is, Demons, along with other mmythic monsters, including Bigfoot, Nessie and those little greaan men with horns, are just fabrication of human imagination. Why did Jesus, if he was all knowing, not know this and correct people on it?
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