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But this brings to mind the humorous anecdote of a priest and a native American, where after a short intro along this theme, the Amerindian comes to realize that Hell is only a threat to him once he knows of it, and he asks why the priest would then tell him in the first place and put him to that risk. Such an idea negates the need of the Great Commission as far as most Christians think of it. It's all just a huge, untenable philosophical mess.
Sounds like someone's preaching the idea of salvation through works.
And since I genuinely believe there's nothing there to reject I guess I fit into this category as well, so I'm safe. But by telling me about god, you're jeopardizing my chances of getting into heaven. Who's side are you really on in this fight?
Heh, yes, as in the eskimo and the missionary story by heathenhamar above. Of course, this only works if we are all totally ignorant of God -concepts. As soon as we are told about God by our society, then we have to decide, believe or not. And I suppose since, along with rock and hooch, the Inuit will eventually hear about God and so the missionary had to ...ah, no. The best thing to do would be to let as many as possible die without ever hearing about God ...and delaying the 'hearing about God' until as many as possible could die without hearing about God...so they would get into heaven through it not being their fault they didn't believe...and thus missionaries should be saving souls by......by striving to prevent the word of God reaching their ears... ..preventing the translation of Bibles into their languages...and...and....keeping all churches, missionaries and preaching away from them as long as possible...and now I am going to put my head under a cold shower.
Then get out and fight against it like God wants you to do. Do you give to that charity, do you help those who get cancer, etc, etc, etc? Maybe cancer is here to teach you a lesson of compassion for your fellow man. Guite whining and start doing.
Are you really saying God causes millions of people to die agonizing deaths from cancer so other people can learn compassion?
God won't send anyone to hell if they truly believe in another religion and think it is the right one. It's how one lives. If they are true to their religion and have not rejected the Christian God---and that happens---then they will probably get into heaven if they live a good life. Of course, no one will know who goes to heaven or not since that is not to be known until we are there.
UMMMM, I don't know what Allah would do. I don't know much about that religion and I have heard even when Muslims die they will never get to see Allah or if they go to a heaven like we think of it.
Which Bible passage assures people that they are safe (in the heaven department) no matter which religion they choose?
Some people might consider "probably" a bit low on the betting odds when eternity is involved.
They are as likely to have created us as a god, since there is zilch evidence for either supposition. Moreover, there is a strong an ancient tradition that fairies live at the bottom of my garden and paint the bluebells. That is a sight more interaction that I ever got from a god.
I think there is a lot of evidence to support the existance of God, the Creator. Many things have been mentioned like the complexity of life. If your belief is that we "just came into existance"...poof...I think you have a lot more faith than me and I can see how, with that much faith, you would believe in these fairies in your garden.
I think there is a lot of evidence to support the existance of God
So do quite a lot of people. Alas when I have asked any of them to stop saying there is a lot and actually adumbrate some of it for me they turn up blank. It is like me trying to pay my bills by telling people I have a lot of money, without ever sending them any of it.
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Originally Posted by Vansdad
Many things have been mentioned like the complexity of life.
You can "mention" a lot of things. But mentioning them does not magically make them evidence for a god. Evidence is a three step process, not one, and goes as follows:
1) State clearly what you are claiming. (You are not doing this much).
2) State clearly what you think supports that claim. (Kinda doing this one but only vaguely).
3) Explain exactly how things listed in 2 support 1. (You are not doing this at all).
Things might be complex to you but complexity is subjective remember. That they are complex to you does not mean there is a god. That is a complete non sequitur.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad
If your belief is that we "just came into existance"...poof...I think you have a lot more faith than me
I for one have never espoused such a belief. However I think you are playing a defensive fallacy card here. What someone like me believes, or not, is irrelevant to whether what you are espousing is substantiated or not. For example you might claim a box in your hands has a rock in it. I would either state a counter belief or simply say "I do not know". What I believe or not however does not in any way have anything to do with the truth or accuracy of YOUR claim.
Alas it is a common trait of our species that when we can not substantiate our own claims we try to shift the burden of proof or focus of conversation by mocking the claims of others. It is a distraction technique that people use so that rather than say "Actually I have no supporting evidence for my claim at all" they can instead smoke screen and shift the conversation to "What you are claiming is ridiculous!!!". Often, like you did, by creating a straw man or caricature of what the "mark" actually does claim / believe such as your "poofed out of nothing" comment.
The question therefore is not what I believe. You are the one saying there is a god. The question therefore is independent of me. The question becomes: What argument, evidence, data or reasons have you to offer us to substantiate your claim in any way or lend it even a modicum of credence? Again, as I said, from 18+ years of asking this question theists have offered me nothing. Squat. Nichts. Zilch. Nadda.
It is a poor move too to suggest that other people not knowing the answer to a question somehow lends credence to your own answer that you simply made up from nothing. It is a common theist trick to make that move however. "I think there is a god" "Why?" "Well where do YOU think the universe came from?" "I do not know" "Aha see? God!". It is a nonsense fallacy move. I often highlight this with the following analogous conversation between two very young children:
Child1: Where do babies come from?
Child2: The stork brings them in a net!
Child1: Are you sure? How do you know this?
Child2: Well where do you think they come from?
Child1: I do not know.
Child2: Aha! See! The stork must bring them.
Clearly the lack of answer from Child1 has not lend credence or evidence to the bogus claim of Child2. Chil2 wants to act like it does however. Why you expect us therefore to act like you making the same move does lend credence to your claims is truly opaque to me. You are pulling the same trick as Child2 and I call foul on this.
LOL, your parents must have had their hands full with you. Did you whine on how hard you had it since they didn't do everything for you? Didn't they tell you to get out there and do things for yourself since they wouldn't be around forever to do it for you? This is what Jesus told His followers.
This doesn't answer my objection. You're the one with the god that demands worship and punishes unbelief, simply for demanding a rational and ethical basis to believe in the first place. And yet this same god suppossedly is all powerful and oversees a world where kids die from cancer. Your god is a bully.
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You don't understand hell. God does not send anyone there we send ourselves. Mostly from standing back saying----it doesn't involve me so I don't care if they are hurt. We can help poor and disabled people you know. That is why were were put here. Help those who are weaker than us. I think Buddhism agrees with this.
Buddhism believes in compassion. However real compassion can only come from understanding the true nature of reality, which is found in the 3 Marks of Existence, summarized as impermanence or emptiness. It cannot come from threats or pleas from a suppossedly powerful supernatural being, it must come from a deep realization that the phenomenon called "me" and "you" only exist in mutual interdependence with all life. When one realizes this, they may be drawn to taking the vow of the Bodhisattva, which is altruistic and in my opinion, far superior to any god demanding a blood sacrifice. And yes, the bodhisattva exists to help those that are "weaker than us" as you put it. But the Bodhisattva is not motivated by morality but a realization or vision of reality.
I think there is a lot of evidence to support the existance of God, the Creator. Many things have been mentioned like the complexity of life. If your belief is that we "just came into existance"...poof...I think you have a lot more faith than me and I can see how, with that much faith, you would believe in these fairies in your garden.
Funny, when I went out for my walk, I was just thinking over that argument because I expected to find it when i came back.
The fact is that the atheist position takes no faith by definition. I have no beliefs about how we (by which I suppose you mean cosmic origins rather than humans, though you may be applying the argument to abiogenesis as well) came into existence. Neither some entity which did not itself need to come from anywhere (convenient eh?) or we just poofed into existence by chance.
In fact neither seem very probable and while a big invisible human doing it may be easier to swallow than matter just deciding to appear out of nothing, I find the idea of a fully - formed god that never came from anywhere and didn't need to a lot more incredible.
The more science has told us about cosmic and life origins the less room there is for a god and less need to have one. Abiogenesis has some plausible mechanisms and it is getting to look as though something that is a kissing cuzzin to nothing could come from nothing. Goddunnit has no explanatory mechanism. God closed his invisible eyes and said 'Be' and it was. Gotta confess Godfaith can be an easy alternative to actually explaining anything.
So without having faith either way, I think the case for non - god origins is looking a sight stronger than it was ever two decades ago.
As for a god who certainly doesn't seem to be able to do more than impress his face on burnt toast, I reckon it takes as much faith to believe in that as in fairies.
Considering the fact that only theist believe that anything much less everything just "pooffed" into existence your skepticism is a bit misplaced.
I suppose you believe it has always existed?
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...by striving to prevent the word of God reaching their ears...
..preventing the translation of Bibles into their languages...and...and....keeping all churches, missionaries and preaching away from them as long as possible...and now I am going to put my head under a cold shower.
