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We are aware of all the shades of grey. We simply do not insist that one believe or not that grey is either type of black or a type of white.
By using the vague term 'spiritual' you are taking all the grey stuff and insisting that it is the 'religious hue'.
I'm more referring to how some people want to reduce everything down to the physical element while others see there are some points in between. In other words the universe in only physical or the universe contains non physical..."spiritual"
I'm more referring to how some people want to reduce everything down to the physical element while others see there are some points in between. In other words the universe in only physical or the universe contains non physical..."spiritual"
Can't agree there. There is the 'physical' as it is called -what we can demonstrate to be matter and physics or forces, at least. The rest is not 'spiritual' but 'unknown'.
In fact I recall that wasn't what your 'grey areas were about, anyway. Let's check back...(LookinForMayberry View Post) "Of course not, because God is a SPIRITUAL presence and not a material presence in our lives."
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Originally Posted by Vansdad
I'm glad there are people who understand.
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Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
Yes I understand alright. The use of empty phrases like "spiritual" gets you out of substantiating your claims in any way. Words like that do little more than define ones own
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Originally Posted by Vansdad
Some people see the world in black & white only. Others see all the shades of grey.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
We are aware of all the shades of grey. We simply do not insist that one believe or not that grey is either type of black or a type of white. By using the vague term 'spiritual' you are taking all the grey stuff and insisting that it is the 'religious hue'.
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Originally Posted by Vansdad
I'm more referring to how some people want to reduce everything down to the physical element while others see there are some points in between. In other words the universe in only physical or the universe contains non physical..."spiritual"
No, I misremembered, sorta. It the same, sorta. The stuff that has been substantiated does not support religious (spiritual is too vague) claims. So you are looking to the grey areas, by which you mean unknowns or rather unexplaineds and I'll give you this much, it is a grey area of unexplained but real phenomena between the known physical and stuff there may be out there which we don't know anything about.
What you are doing is the usual fallacy of argumentum ignorantium - or 'Gap for God' here: if we can't explain it, it could well be 'spiritual' by which you mean God -stuff. Possibly, but you are wrong in taking issue with those who see it in the 'physical element' . That is the only valid approach. The materialist default is valid and the burden of proof is on the one claiming that it is is something else.
Your appeal to unknowns as grey area with a possible spiritual element (quite apart from what -it could be Kali for all you know) is illogical and if you dismiss the point, you are giving up any claim to logic for your views; and if you insist that unknown possibles should be taken as specific religious probables without any evidential support other that faith based preference, 'Faith' based belief is what it is.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 08-23-2012 at 01:44 PM..
Can't agree there. There is the 'physical' as it is called -what we can demonstrate to be matter and physics or forces, at least. The rest is not 'spiritual' but 'unknown'.
In fact I recall that wasn't what your 'grey areas were about, anyway. Let's check back...(LookinForMayberry View Post) "Of course not, because God is a SPIRITUAL presence and not a material presence in our lives."
No, I misremembered, sorta. It the same, sorta. The stuff that has been substantiated does not support religious (spiritual is too vague) claims. So you are looking to the grey areas, by which you mean unknowns or rather unexplaineds and I'll give you this much, it is a grey area of unexplained but real phenomena between the known physical and stuff there may be out there which we don't know anything about.
What you are doing is the usual fallacy of argumentum ignorantium - or 'Gap for God' here: if we can't explain it, it could well be 'spiritual' by which you mean God -stuff. Possibly, but you are wrong in taking issue with those who see it in the 'physical element' . That is the only valid approach. The materialist default is valid and the burden of proof is on the one claiming that it is is something else.
Your appeal to unknowns as grey area with a possible spiritual element (quite apart from what -it could be Kali for all you know) is illogical and if you dismiss the point, you are giving up any claim to logic for your views; and if you insist that unknown possibles should be taken as specific religious probables without any evidential support other that faith based preference, 'Faith' based belief is what it is.
"Spiritual" in quotes can include many things from God to the paranormal to phychic abilities. I'm saying I believe there are things of a non-physical nature.
"Spiritual" in quotes can include many things from God to the paranormal to phychic abilities. I'm saying I believe there are things of a non-physical nature.
Well, maybe. What I am saying is that we know nothing about them and it is incorrect and pretty arrogant too, to claim that we somehow magically understand what they are. Ok, I know there are many who have various experiences and are convinced by them and get pretty shirty if we query their assumptions of what they take those feelings to be. But the fact is that some research and tests have shown that we can easily be misled or fool ourselves or even be fooled by those who don't mind lying to us to make a living or gain acceptance for whatever line they are peddling.
There really is no valid reason to accept these unknowns or unexplaineds (1) as this or that reality, never mind going one step further and saying it proves God. Really, Dads, mate. really.
(1) OOB's is a classic case. While the experience is undeniable, what actually happens is arguable. Even if claims that this or that thing was seen which needed a roving spiritual eye are validated, does that prove a 'Soul?' If there is a soul, does that prove God? The Thoth - worshippers believed in a soul, too.
Well, maybe. What I am saying is that we know nothing about them and it is incorrect and pretty arrogant too, to claim that we somehow magically understand what they are. Ok, I know there are many who have various experiences and are convinced by them and get pretty shirty if we query their assumptions of what they take those feelings to be. But the fact is that some research and tests have shown that we can easily be misled or fool ourselves or even be fooled by those who don't mind lying to us to make a living or gain acceptance for whatever line they are peddling.
There really is no valid reason to accept these unknowns or unexplaineds (1) as this or that reality, never mind going one step further and saying it proves God. Really, Dads, mate. really.
(1) OOB's is a classic case. While the experience is undeniable, what actually happens is arguable. Even if claims that this or that thing was seen which needed a roving spiritual eye are validated, does that prove a 'Soul?' If there is a soul, does that prove God? The Thoth - worshippers believed in a soul, too.
The so-called proof is always questionable. It is our "proof" but what is it...brain activity. That does not proove anything really. But if a psychic can lead police to a criminal that is the proof. No brain activity can explain anything.
So are you saying you have never experienced anything in your life either personally or otherwise that was unexplainable? Seems unlikely to me but some do lead sheltered lives. And if you have then you'd know that somethings are unexplainable. Intuition is like this too. The list goes on and on.
The so-called proof is always questionable. It is our "proof" but what is it...brain activity. That does not proove anything really.
That's what I say. It does not prove anything, so it does not really help your case that there is something wrong or denialist about those who view the world from the physical perspective. That is the only one with 'proove'. It is wrong to give credit to any other perspective.
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But if a psychic can lead police to a criminal that is the proof.
Proof of what? If it works then it is unexplained HOW it works. At one time nobody understood how a kid knew how to suckle or a bird to fly. 'God' was too, too easy an answer. Now DNA gives us the answer. Unexplained is just unexplained.
The unexplained is not 'Explained' as 'Spiritual. It is not evidence of anything other than there are things we can't yet explain. We knew that. I have heard the claims, but haven't seen the proof. Besides, didn't I see somewhere that these claims are denied by the organizations who are supposed to employ these people?
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No brain activity can explain anything.
I don't know what you are saying here. It is only brain activity (reason) that explains anything.
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So are you saying you have never experienced anything in your life either personally or otherwise that was unexplainable? Seems unlikely to me but some do lead sheltered lives. And if you have then you'd know that somethings are unexplainable. Intuition is like this too. The list goes on and on.
Intuition is greatly misunderstood. We confuse experience, unperceived signals and plain statistical bias and tell ourselves that 'Something is going on'. Yes, something, but nothing that can be taken as hard evidence for 'Spiritual'. And I know what the agenda is here. It is the incremental credibility ploy (might be a fallacy - I think maybe the fallacy of the beard...in reverse) whereby if you can get something accepted, like maybe some undersea formation, some DNA feature, some physical effect that science can't account for, some miracle that can't be disproved, some prediction that panned out, some locked back that cleared up just as sawbones called (happened to me once ) anything that can be used to slip the credit card of 'something can't explain' into the crack of the science door so as to dump all the fantastic unproven claims and say that we have to disprove all of that or science cannot be believed.
The burden of proof is on the claimant to show that there is something 'spiritual' or supernatural is what you mean going on. The fact is you can't because, as Born - again agnostic Boxcar found to his irritation, anything supernatural that is explained, becomed Natural. Anything that is not remains unexplained. The supernatural remains unproven/unexplained because no-one can explain it.
What we know is either explained or not explained yet - Mind, some definite proof of NDE/OOB or of prognostication or faith - healing. We get a lot of stuff that remains anecdotal if not debunked and the hard cases just seem to vanish. The list of CLAIMS and anecdotes goes on an on, but the plural of anecdote is not 'Data'. The list of hard evidence for the supernatural. spiritual or divine is as short a book as 'Doomsday predictions that came true'.
When you have nothing but a grab - bag of unchecked and unvalidated anecdotes, claims and speculations, you have nothing. You have nothing worth using as a basis for thought and reason other than the physical - the materialist default.
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And if you have then you'd know that somethings are unexplainable. Intuition is like this too. The list goes on and on.
) anything that can be used to slip the credit card of 'something can't explain' into the crack of the science door so as to dump all the fantastic unproven claims and say that we have to disprove all of that or science cannot be believed.
