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Old 10-24-2014, 12:47 PM
 
24 posts, read 23,193 times
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I don't disagree with the previous post. But I think it's necessary to realize that this IS an allegory: an attempt to explain WHY life is like it is from the point of view of a particular civilization at a particular time and place.

But the EVENTS of the narrative are simply the experience of EVERY human being: infancy and childhood in a Garden of Eden ("Aden" in Hebrew means "delight")--- a "Garden of Delight", plainly meant as an allegorical term of universal experience.Then comes puberty, which is "eating from the Tree of Knowledge" BOTH in the sexual sense AND in the more comprehensive sense of self-awareness, and the ability to recognize the difference between good and evil (hence, by implication, becoming RESPONSIBLE for one's choice of actions). In Hebrew, the word "yeda" (and its various grammatical permutations) is used BOTH to mean sexual intercourse ("the man KNEW his wife") AND to mean various modes of knowledge generally (self-awareness, moral awareness, awareness of the possibilities of choice,etc.)

The consequent expulsion, "curse" of adult suffering, the prohibition against returning (retrogressing) to the Garden of Delights are simply FACTS of the human condition. But it need not mean that God is "manipulating" Adam and Eve to act in terms of a foregone conclusion. The ATTITUDE of the writer(s) reflects the ethic of the civilization when the allegory was written, and since an allegory is a LITERARY form, we also have to realize that the writer(s) meant to DRAMATIZE the narrative.

That means we can INTERPRET the allegory, but we should not over-psychologize the characters in the narrative in a too literal way.Clearly the writer did not intend to write a modern "REALISTIC" NOVEL.
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Old 10-27-2014, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonCarlodiCalatrava View Post
That means we can INTERPRET the allegory, but we should not over-psychologize the characters in the narrative in a too literal way.Clearly the writer did not intend to write a modern "REALISTIC" NOVEL.
Outstanding post (By which I mean that you have done a great job of agreeing with me). One of the things that we should take from it is a better understanding of "original sin," which is nothing more than the self-centered perceptions and attitudes of childhood contrasted with a developing sense of our place in community; immediate self-interest often has to be subordinated to group interest in a sort of enlightened self interest.

Simple, and not something to be baptized away.
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Old 10-27-2014, 04:15 PM
 
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The Biblical text clearly separates the creation of animals from the creation of humans. So, from the Biblical point of view, the Creation story can NOT be validly interpreted as the emergence of humans from the animal stage.

However, I think you're onto something: the clear progression of the Creation (Chapter One) does, in broad outline, parallel the modern scientific view of Big Bang, cosmology and evolution.

What makes this parallel so strikingly clear is a comparison between the Biblical Creation story and other Creation stories from about the same time period. Just compare the Biblical narrative with the ancient Mesopotamian creation story, in which the Sky God battles the Sea Goddess, finally dismembering her and using her blood and body parts to form the seas, mountains, land, etc. (Google it).

That comparison shows instantly how revolutionary for its time the Biblical account is. The Bible gives an account in straightforward terms of creation from primordial chaos by a process of ORDERLY PROGRESSIVE DIFFERENTIATION: Light/Dark;Sky/Earth; Waters above/Waters below; Land/Sea;Sun/Moon; Lower animals/ Higher animals; and finally
Man----Masculine/Feminine. And finally, the sublime differentiation between Divine Creative Action/ Divine Rest ("...and He [God] rested"--- Hebrew "va-yishbot", from which the word "Shabbat" ("Sabbath") is derived).

In broad outline, this ORDERLY PROGRESSION parallels modern scientific cosmology, unfolding from Big Bang to simple, light inorganic elements (helium, hydrogen) to complex, heavy inorganic elements (stars, under enormous heat and pressure, produce carbon, nitrogen, oxygen to iron,etc.); gradual cooling results in solar system including Earth; progression from inorganic to organic (bacteria to macro-organisms and speciation); and finally humans (conscious awareness, language, tool-making), with humans most recent (100,000 to 1 million years ago).

When we compare the Biblical pattern of unfolding order with other ancient creation stories, the simplicity, lucidity and relative MODERNITY of the Biblical narrative is startling in such an ancient text.

Last edited by DonCarlodiCalatrava; 10-27-2014 at 04:55 PM.. Reason: word change
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Old 11-02-2014, 12:20 PM
 
680 posts, read 634,104 times
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Adam & Eve?

Gen 5:1-2
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Seems you missed the premise from the beginning of the story.
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Old 11-02-2014, 12:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonCarlodiCalatrava View Post

When we compare the Biblical pattern of unfolding order with other ancient creation stories, the simplicity, lucidity and relative MODERNITY of the Biblical narrative is startling in such an ancient text.

There may have been some scientific knowledge emerging at that time (well, scientific knowledge has always been emerging, but I mean specific to the cosmos) through both observation and logic (i.e. logical progressions...smaller to larger, baser to more intelligent) which people then needed a story to explain, and therefore, the explanation, as was common of the time (and even into today), was that some sentient being created it all.

However, they didn't get it 100% right as is your assertion (even in a very basic way) as Genesis has the earth existing before night and day...i.e., before there was a sun. The Bible even has "the waters" existing before there was a sun (including the waters on the earth, so the viewpoint that this might have meant "space" or "the universe" doesn't hold - I have heard that one before, not saying the person I'm quoting said this). Nor could there have been "the earth" and "waters" before there was a sky, as Genesis 1:6 claims. Nor is there any evidence (as far as I know - someone correct me) that the earth was ENTIRELY covered with water, with no dry land, before dry land appeared (as Genesis 1:9 claims). Actually, it was pretty obviously the opposite - the earth was rocky and devoid of water before water ever appeared. To make things worse yet, the Bible doesn't have stars being created until after vegetation appeared. (???) Obviously, these can't be anywhere near correct.

So, through observation and logic, the ancients got a few things probably right, a few things obviously wrong. This (to me) doesn't point to divine knowledge, but rather, logic and a good bit of guesswork. Pretty similar to any other religious creation belief system.
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Old 11-02-2014, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Red River Texas
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Originally Posted by Chango View Post
The characters themselves are allegorical; Adam and Eve of course represent the human race at large. The serpent perhaps represents human inquisitiveness, a force that drives humanity forward and can be both good and very dangerous. The Cherubim guarding the gates to Eden may represent our inability to regress to humanity's simpler state.


Adam is in your right eye, and he was put there to guide the whole body, Adam is still there, but he has fallen, and so there was a need for a new spirit to rule the body, a divorce of one, and a marriage to the other.


The serpent is in your right eye, and Eve is in the middle.


The 3 are one, and for a very long time these 3 continued until Jesus came.


This is the reason Jesus says,'' From now on there shall be 5 in a house.''{your body is the house}''


Son shall hate the father, and father the son, mother in law shall hate the daughter in law, and daughter in law shall hate the mother in law.

These are all present in a person who accepts a new spirit to lead their body.


We are born as sons of Satan trying to become new creatures, we are sons because the body wants to rule instead of spirit.


But to believe in Christ is to become a new creature, and instead of the desires of the flesh ruling, the person become as a submissive virgin, and the virgin wants to marry a New spirit in Jesus.

So you must hate your father, and when you become a virgin betrothed to Christ, the mother in law hates the daughter in law, and the daughter in law shall hate the mother in law.

5 in a house.


Jesus had to leave his father and mother to take a bride and become one with that bride.


How did Jesus leave his father and mother?

Who is his mother?

Eve.

Born of a woman.
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Old 11-02-2014, 01:36 PM
 
63,455 posts, read 39,713,126 times
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Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Outstanding post (By which I mean that you have done a great job of agreeing with me). One of the things that we should take from it is a better understanding of "original sin," which is nothing more than the self-centered perceptions and attitudes of childhood contrasted with a developing sense of our place in community; immediate self-interest often has to be subordinated to group interest in a sort of enlightened self interest.
Simple, and not something to be baptized away.
Why is this so difficult to convey, nate?? I am always amazed that there are some who see it so clearly and others who simply cannot seem to grasp it at all. Our focus on the physical and our conditioning and indoctrination to the "precepts and doctrines of men" from our barbaric ancestors seems to have enormous power over so many who seem willing to abandon human reason for credulity.
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Old 11-02-2014, 02:08 PM
 
Location: Iowa, USA
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Honestly, I find it horrifying that the entire story of creation wasn't taken as a metaphor from the beginning. It's rather tragic, especially now, to have people believe in a literal 6 day creation when everything we know about the Earth suggests a much slower process.

Even so, the story of Adam and Eve is clearly just a testament of human nature, and a fairly good one at that. Given when it was written, it was incredibly insightful, even if it was an accident. God says 'don't do that' and the natural curiosity of humans made it very easy for them to be convinced that they can and even should do it. It's also a clever story as to why humans are 'smarter' than other species in their ability to think big picture (ironically, it's the ones who believe this story is literally true that struggle the most with this).
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Old 11-02-2014, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Red River Texas
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Originally Posted by TheDusty View Post
Honestly, I find it horrifying that the entire story of creation wasn't taken as a metaphor from the beginning. It's rather tragic, especially now, to have people believe in a literal 6 day creation when everything we know about the Earth suggests a much slower process.

Even so, the story of Adam and Eve is clearly just a testament of human nature, and a fairly good one at that. Given when it was written, it was incredibly insightful, even if it was an accident. God says 'don't do that' and the natural curiosity of humans made it very easy for them to be convinced that they can and even should do it. It's also a clever story as to why humans are 'smarter' than other species in their ability to think big picture (ironically, it's the ones who believe this story is literally true that struggle the most with this).


God looked down on man and saw that he was lonely.

So he caused a massive rock to slam into the Earth, and it pierced the Earth thus putting it in a sleep of death.

The moon shook everything it could when it slammed into the Earth, and from the Earth, the Moon was created from it's own body{a rib} after being pierced.

The moon is inching away from us day by day, but the Earth is in a marriage with the moon in her 30 day cycle.

The moon moves the waters of men, and we are all born of water.


The story was not about Adam and Eve.



The bible teaches evolution also, it begins with a tent of meeting that is made from animal skins, and this tent{body} evolves, and now the tent is made of human skins, not animals.


I look at Genesis as telling a story that wouldn't be fully known until knowledge progressed, and to look back at Genesis, is like looking at somebody telling a scientific story and explanation of how the moon came to be, and how evolution progressed.


I have to grin when reading Atheist posts that make fun of the Genesis account, because where Atheist would say that Genesis is not based on science of reality of where we came from, they are not realizing what the bible is proving that it already knew.

A truth that would not be known until recently.
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Old 11-02-2014, 03:42 PM
 
Location: US Wilderness
1,233 posts, read 1,119,099 times
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Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
It could also be a metaphor for the stage when we progressed from animals to animals plus something more - although that's if you believe there's some sort of 'threshold' a being must cross to become sentinent and 'in the image of God.' Biologically speaking, it could have been when we evolved into Homo sapiens. Their self-awareness, the knowledge of 'Good and Evil' was a 'putting upon' the burden of the 'human condition' and finding out the awful fact that they will now die.
I see definite signs of the story being about humans being different from animals, at least in part.


Quote:
Genesis 1
16 To the woman he said,
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.

17 To Adam he said, …
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
Human childbirth is difficult and painful because of the size of the head. Animal birthing is generally much easier. Most of the exceptions are in the ones that humans bred to meet human purposes.

Animals eat what is readily available. Man must work the land. I have done a bit of manual farming. Hard work!

Animals need no clothing. Humans do, being unequipped

Humans can see all these things and wonder why they are different from animals and why things are harder for them. (Or so it seems when you are hoeing a row in rocky soil and see deer just nibbling on leaves.) And so it will be until we are dead. Must be a punishment. Why? And why are we made so as to be aware of it?

A myth to explain this is one of the several myths woven into Genesis.
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