Simple "Origins" Question. Can a Christian answer it? (God, Christians)

[MysticPhD]

Well . . . since the universal field that establishes our reality is God's consciousness, IMO . . . it undoubtedly occurs the same way we "create" within our consciousness. (I think of the great creation out of nothing that is the entire world in the movie Avatar.) Therefore . . . since our entire reality is ensconced in God's consciousness . . . it would be as if God just thought us into existence, rifle.

[WhipperSnapper 88]

Originally Posted by Mr5150

Christians don't know how God created the Universe

Now why is it that when Atheists use the same approach, Christians immediately jump up and scream "Ah Haaaa..... GOTCHA!!" and walk away with a sarcastic look on their face as if to say... " see, God did it "

Personally, I don't need to know how He did it. Same thing with Gravity-I don't need to know how it works to know it is real.

WOWwwww.... hold on there my 5150 freind, are you trying to equate the knowing of the existence of Gravity, with the knowing of the existence of God, simply because they are both unseen with the naked eye? Not so fast. The difference is, you CAN see gravity, through the effects it has here on earth and other planets. We know that SOMETHING has to be keeping our feet firmly on the ground, and the fact that we are being held on the ground is evidence, so therefore, we can LOGICALLY and REASONABLY conclude that gravity exists.

As far as the existence of a God, none of the above applies. There is zero evidence to conclude that a God MUST have had to have created our universe and everything that is in it.

Can't debate without the use of trickery?

Originally Posted by Mr5150

Christians don't know how God created the Universe. Perhaps some day science will discover the answer. Tho it might be a bit tricky to see what happened before the big bang.

Personally, I don't need to know how He did it. Same thing with Gravity-I don't need to know how it works to know it is real.

The question is not how did God create the Universe but how did he do it from nothing? It seems to escape Christians that this is logically impossible as well as physically impossible. God by definition is totally seperate from matter/energy - he is all together, ontologically, different. Where did the material come from if he was only in existence before all matter/energy was created? This is a violation of causation - you not only need the cause but the material in order to create something - the effect.

If a god does exist it aint the Christian one.

[Mr5150]

Originally Posted by Mr5150

Christians don't know how God created the Universe. Perhaps some day science will discover the answer. Tho it might be a bit tricky to see what happened before the big bang.

Personally, I don't need to know how He did it. Same thing with Gravity-I don't need to know how it works to know it is real.

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88

Can't debate without the use of trickery?

Trickery huh? Nice ad hominem, I made an honest post and you did not like it, But hey, no worries.

Please read more slowly and understand. "Same thing with Gravity-I don't need to know how it works to know it is real". Rifle guy's point is if we don't know how Goddidit we have no standing. Which begs the question: Does it matter? We know God is real. It matters not that we don't know how He created the universe (the point of the OP).

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

If a god does exist it aint the Christian one.

And you know this how?

Originally Posted by Mr5150

And you know this how?

Follow my previous post -creation ex-nihilo is logically absurd - There cannot be a god that creates out of nothing.

[Wonderkid50]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

Follow my previous post -creation ex-nihilo is logically absurd - There cannot be a god that creates out of nothing.

Under the laws of our universe, yes. But where did the stuff come from in the first place? The big bang happened. What CAUSED it? If effect requires cause, as it does in our world, then you tell us, what caused the bb? Nothing? Or the creator?

[Wallisdj]

The Big Bang would be as close to the universe being created from nothing. But then we have to look at the semantics being used here.

"Nothing" would indicate matter, but to the Ancients, there were no such things as protons, electrons, quarks, or anything else.

In most cases, I could imagine that "air" was once regarded as nothing.

Even in the medical society, diseases manifested themselves from "nothing," and until pioneers into microbiology got into the act and were finally given credit, doctors believed that diseases were spontaneous--created from nothing.

The "Nothing" would indicated that there was no universe before. Obviously, this would be in conflict with the theory that the universe expands and contracts periodically. There is "Nothing" in a black hole, either, apparently, according to accepted theories. Except now, we have this new model that states that within a black hole is the existence of a new univese.

The "Nothing" should not be a stumbling block. Expanding on the black hole theory (theories), nothing can ever enter a black hole. Why? Because at a certain point, upon reaching or just before reaching the Event Horizon, there is no time. Everything comes to a shocking "stand-still." Yet, other observations state that matter and energy is entering the black hole. Both are occurring at the same time.

If we accept that the Big Bang was an unbalancing of the four elemental energy forms of the universe: electro-magnetism, gravity, and the strong and weak nuclear forces, then there was really nothing. We would not necessarily state that there is "Nothing" because we are using 21st Century knowledge, which now includes forces and magnetic fields as being "Something."

Why ridicule, however, the pre-modern knowledge beliefs and precepts that might be used today to describe one's view of both God and the universe? Why not accept the fact that some people prefer to delimt the "Nothing" to particle matter and leave it at that? Are those of us insisting on an exact definition tailored only a certain way to be the Gospel and the only Truth? And these same pots are blaming religious-minded pans to be black. Such a wonder!

Originally Posted by Wonderkid50

Under the laws of our universe, yes. But where did the stuff come from in the first place? The big bang happened. What CAUSED it? If effect requires cause, as it does in our world, then you tell us, what caused the bb? Nothing? Or the creator?

First of all the absence of any alternative does not mean that the Christian God hypothesis wins by default - this thread is not about me explaining but christians. Second, your options -'nothing' or the 'creator' is what is called a false dichotomy - something physical could have caused the BB, the BB could be wrong, there are many alternative theories, or matter/energy could be eternal. Third, Christians believe that God and the universe are ontologically different and that God at some point was the only thing in existence therefore the universe cannot be anything of God or of anything period prior to his act of creating since nothing existed except him. So how can something (The Universe), even on this account, come from nothing? You cannot just say God is all powerful - that is a post-hoc rationalization that is without explanation.

Still waiting for the explanantion?

[rifleman]

Originally Posted by Wonderkid50

Under the laws of our universe, yes. But where did the stuff come from in the first place? The big bang happened. What CAUSED it? If effect requires cause, as it does in our world, then you tell us, what caused the bb? Nothing? Or the creator?

Not what or who caused it, Wonderkid50 et al, but out of what material elements and energies, and from whence did that very elusive "what" arise.

Specifically, which uniform building blocks were readily available for the natural forces and constants evident during the BB, or for the unnatural and unimaginable forces in the Genesis story (which as I've stated instantly fails out of hand on even a cursory review, since it was supposed to have been an event of total completion but which it so very obviously is not!)

Where did it come from if the scientific version is to be held to those exact same standards, but routinely suffers the usual smirking and shallowly considered out-of-hand dismissals. Plus those tiresome and silly claims that scientific logic has not one iota of evidence nor logic to support the BB theory, whilst the Glorious Omnipotent Creator God concept is simultaneously glad-handed as a proven and obvious success. You can see and understand our logical conundrum, can't you, Christians? You're being obtuse, deflective and obsequious.

Hmmmm.... Different standards, differentially applied?

We know what that's called, don't we? Hypocrisy.

[Miss Blue]

I am neither a scientist, Bible literalist, fundamental christian and barely a Christian at all according to these forums I strongly believe in a creator though so I call myself a believer.

I will not claim to know how "goddunit" any more than anyone can claim He didn't. I do believe in evolution. but cannot accept humans evolved from animal. I think humans are/were created with the power to expand their minds with learning ,adapting, reasoning, etc. Man 's evolution is still continuing as far as I see it. From caveman at the infancy of his creation to the age we are presently trying to survive in..

Just throwing this one in..I believe the earth is billions of years old, man did not live alongside dinosaurs and Noahs flood if it did occur happened locally, and I am not a slave to anyone..