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We're often admonished by Christians that "science" has tried but failed to explain how the Universe was created OUT OF NOTHING.(Noting of course that "Evolution" is unrelated to this Creation, btw... Such tiresome conflations only serve to show the huge lack of basic scientific literacy of the writer...)
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Answer me this one then please:
How did your god Create His instantly complete and fully finished () Universe OUT OF NOTHING?
Are we talking about different "NOTHING" elements here? Godly versus Reality LEGOâ„¢ particles?
Before answering the above I think it's important to consider what makes science possible? Science is possible because the physical world is orderly and the behavior of energy and matter is predictable and uniform within a given set of parameters. This orderliness is manifest by the fundamental laws of physics, chemistry, mathematics, etc without these fundamental laws science and technology would not be possible and life... well life would likely not be possible as well. Many observant men of science have noted this orderliness when examining the universe and contemplated the question you ask of how did the universe come into existence.
So did God create the universe out of nothing? What does science tell us? It appears the universe was initially composed of extremely concentrated matter and thus was super hot. Once temperatures cooled down quarks could stick together to form protons and neutrons. With successive temperature drops protons and neutrons could combine to form hydrogen and helium nuclei and it's these nuclei that provide the fuel that allows stars to burn. Then you had areas of clumpiness and matter some of it affected by light and other type of matter affected only by gravity (dark matter). gradually we get the big stars, little stars, galaxies, planets etc. Now life needs more than just hydrogen and helium. Life needs more complex atoms like oxygen and carbon. Hmmm how to get these rare complex atoms? Well an interesting thing about giant stars (they harbor the complex atoms necessary for life) and guess what happens when they supernova? they spew these complex atoms. So these things happen by chance? Or was it luck?
Some food for thought...
That good old periodic table learned in chemistry class. You recall the orderliness of it all. Early on although only a dozen elements were identified scientists could predict with amazing accuracy the gaps. Why? chance?
Is it chance that a minute change in the arrangement of atomic paricles produces an array of elements?
What about the force that holds these atomic particles together. From the smallest particle to the most ginormous galaxy...everything follows the laws of physics. Why? chance?
So at this point I would say God created the universe out of quarks, protons, neutrons, hydrogen, helium. Once this process got under way stars formed, early galaxies formed, planets formed, giant stars formed went supernova and spewed out more complex atoms necessary for life. God also established physical laws by which everything in the universe is governed.
Long ago the man Job was asked (Job 38:33), "Do you know the laws governing the heavens,
Or can you impose their authority on the earth?"
The belief in God and science are not incompatible and each has a role to play and can enrich a person's life. It should be remembered that some of the foundations of modern science were laid by intelligent and capable people who believed in God.
BTW even a young child knows that Legos have to be put together they don't just arrange themselves into complex structures by chance or random processes.
Before answering the above I think it's important to consider what makes science possible? Science is possible because the physical world is orderly and the behavior of energy and matter is predictable and uniform within a given set of parameters.
While this appears to be true - it is a truth that theists often try to over extend. Militant homophobic and recently convicted criminal Dinesh DSouza for example is known to do this. They try to make the non-sequitur argument of "It is orderly - therefore god". As if "god" is the only explanation we can offer to explain such orderliness.
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Originally Posted by hd4me
So at this point I would say God created the universe out of
Then at this point you have decided to offer us wanton and unsubstantiated assertion. For reasons of your own I guess.
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Originally Posted by hd4me
It should be remembered that some of the foundations of modern science were laid by intelligent and capable people who believed in God.
So were many atrocities. And the majority of chickens plucked in chicken factories in the past were likely done so by people of faith too. So whats your point? Do you have one? Do you even know?
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Originally Posted by hd4me
BTW even a young child knows that Legos have to be put together they don't just arrange themselves into complex structures by chance or random processes.
Again whats your point? Wanton extrapolation perhaps? Because some structures require intentional intervention we should therefore assume all do, for example? Is the best you have to offer us vague suggestions that we should extrapolate single examples into generalized rules? Puhleeese.
uote=Nozzferrahhtoo;35684916]While this appears to be true - it is a truth that theists often try to over extend. Militant homophobic and recently convicted criminal Dinesh DSouza for example is known to do this. They try to make the non-sequitur argument of "It is orderly - therefore god". As if "god" is the only explanation we can offer to explain such orderliness.
Well explain it...is it luck, chance, etc. I'm sure you can express your thoughts.
It's not that it "appears to be true" because the statement I made is true, "Before answering the above I think it's important to consider what makes science possible?
Science is possible because the physical world is orderly and the behavior of energy and matter is predictable and uniform within a given set of parameters. True or false?
This orderliness is manifest by the fundamental laws of physics, chemistry, mathematics, etc without these fundamental laws science and technology would not be possible and life... well life would likely not be possible as well. True or false?
Many observant men of science have noted this orderliness when examining the universe and contemplated the question you ask of how did the universe come into existence." True or false?
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Then at this point you have decided to offer us wanton and unsubstantiated assertion. For reasons of your own I guess.
The OP asked How God made the universe and I responded as such, "So at this point I would say God created the universe out of quarks, protons, neutrons, hydrogen, helium. Once this process got under way stars formed, early galaxies formed, planets formed, giant stars formed went supernova and spewed out more complex atoms necessary for life. God also established physical laws by which everything in the universe is governed."
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So were many atrocities. And the majority of chickens plucked in chicken factories in the past were likely done so by people of faith too. So whats your point? Do you have one? Do you even know?
The point is this...science is not just for those who reject belief in a higher power. The foundations of some scientific fields were established by men who believed in a supreme being or who recognized an intelligence at play during the study of their respective fields
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Again whats your point? Wanton extrapolation perhaps? Because some structures require intentional intervention we should therefore assume all do, for example? Is the best you have to offer us vague suggestions that we should extrapolate single examples into generalized rules? Puhleeese.[/quote
This is an example of why people should read the post by the OP in any thread. The OP indicated that perhaps God used Lego particles and no doubt was intended as sarcasm,humor, etc. My response was a tit for tat. And what's with the "us" and "we" are you using plural of majesty? Do you speak for the entire body of posters in the Religion and Spirituality forum? Sorry, it's just distracting and sounds presumptuous and patronizing outside of the normal uses of nosism.
Well explain it...is it luck, chance, etc. I'm sure you can express your thoughts.
Expressing my thoughts is the least of my problems in life, as many here will inform you.
You are missing my point. My point is independent of where I can explain it or not. Let me put my point another way to see if you can better grasp it.
The point is that whether or not we can explain it, this does not give you license to declare "god dunnit". You are engaging in what is known as the "god of the gaps" fallacy. In other words "If you can not explain X, therefore god".
Learn the fallacy, understand it, avoid it.
Here is a small story I normally trot out to people like yourself. Imagine two young boys discussing where babies come from.
Boy1: Where do babies come from.
Boy2: The stork brings them.
Boy1: How do you know this?!?!?!
Boy2: Well can you explain where babies come from?
Boy1: No.
Boy2: Aha! See! The stork brings them!
clearly you are boy2 in this example. You are using another persons lack of answer to a conundrum as validation for your own. This is fallacious reasoning at best, and a crass little canard at worst.
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Originally Posted by hd4me
It's not that it "appears to be true" because the statement I made is true
Again it APPEARS to be true and it might well be true. But we simply do not know 100% that it is. Our window of observation relative to the age of the universe is miniscule. Matter and Energy appear to be uniform to us now within this window. But we do not know for 100% it was always so, or always will be so. We simply operate under this assumption because the current data set suggests it to be show.
But, for example, nanoseconds after the big bang is a point where all our supposedly "uniform" laws on matter and energy simply break down.
For another example the laws of Newtonian physics entirely break down too when we observe the world of the very small.
In other words all our supposedly "uniform" laws have points in time or size where they simply break down and are not as uniform and fixed as you appear to think.
But again this is beside the point. The point IS that just because we observe that a certain level of orderliness exists.... this does not license you to simply append "therefore god" which is essentially what you are doing. That is simply a complete non-sequitur you are throwing in for no reason other than to fuel an agenda.
The problem for you is that at this time we simply have not got a SHRED of argument, evidence, data OR reasoning on offer to even BEGIN to suggest that the explanation for our universe involved an intentional agent (which you call a god) or even that such a non human intentional agent even exists at all.
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Originally Posted by hd4me
The foundations of some scientific fields were established by men who believed in a supreme being or who recognized an intelligence at play during the study of their respective fields
And again what your point is is unclear. So what if such things were done by people of religion? That says nothing at all. As I said most chickens that have been plucked in chicken factories were also done by people of religion. The question is did their religion have anything to do with it? And I see no reason to think it did.
You might as well tell me that science was mostly done by people with beards, for all the sense you are making (that is to say: none).
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Originally Posted by hd4me
This is an example of why people should read the post by the OP in any thread.
Then do so. I certainly have.
But this does not change the fact that using one example where intentional agency was involved in the construction of something.... in no way licenses an extrapolation. Yet you attempted one all the same. For shame.
It's interesting, because water molecules H2O are like lego particles that self assemble... only because of the angle of bond and the polarity, we get beautiful snowflakes, and corrosive properties. Do invisible snowflake fairies design their beauty? No. It's natural. If you say God designed H and O then the watch-maker analogy fails, we are looking at a watch in a sea of watches and claiming everything was designed but have no "opposite" to compare it to.
It's interesting to note that a lot of theologians approach this topic from the standpoint that Humans are the only possible form of intelligent life. If that were the case, then the odds of humans being here, specifically, would be staggering indeed.
But there is nothing in science which asserts that humans are the only possible form of intelligent life. Ergo, whatever chemicals that supernova stars spew out just happened to be right for the formation of carbon-based lifeforms. In other words, we're here because conditions were right for humans to be here.
If the conditions were different, some other form of intelligent life might be having this same discussion. Perhaps a lifeform based on silicon or even crytalline creatures could have evolved. A couple of living snowflakes could be saying, "Wow, it sure is lucky that we exist, therefore, the Snowflake God must be responsible!"
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Originally Posted by hd4me
That good old periodic table learned in chemistry class. You recall the orderliness of it all. Early on although only a dozen elements were identified scientists could predict with amazing accuracy the gaps. Why? chance?
Everything we know about sentience screams disorder, chaos, disharmony. We might be able to predict the next element on the periodic table, but predicting the behavior of the scientists who make the discovery is something altogether different. This is why psychology and sociology are not hard sciences. Predicting the behavior of sentient creatures is not at all guaranteed.
Thus it would seem highly unlikely that a universe designed by a sentient being would be so orderly. There would be many instances of whimsy, flights of fancy, randomness, and things that have no naturalistic explanation. Except there isn't - which to my mind suggests a wholly natural formation of the universe.
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Originally Posted by hd4me
Is it chance that a minute change in the arrangement of atomic paricles produces an array of elements?
Essentially, yes. There's just nothing all that amazing about it, either. It only seems amazing when presented as a false dilemma - either the universe had to form the way it did, or it wouldn't form at all. Sure, at that point, it seems too impossible to believe that the universe randomly, by chance, formed in the only way it could to sustain its existence when there were quintillions of other possibilities.
But if each of those other quintillion possibilities would have spawned its own unique form of sentient life, the odds of sentient life forming in the universe is one (1). In other words, it's guaranteed. If you're betting on human life specifically then the odds against are great indeed. But as I said before, we could have been a completely different form of life if the universe had developed different properties.
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Originally Posted by hd4me
What about the force that holds these atomic particles together. From the smallest particle to the most ginormous galaxy...everything follows the laws of physics. Why? chance?
Why not?
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Originally Posted by hd4me
So at this point I would say God created the universe out of quarks, protons, neutrons, hydrogen, helium. Once this process got under way stars formed, early galaxies formed, planets formed, giant stars formed went supernova and spewed out more complex atoms necessary for life. God also established physical laws by which everything in the universe is governed.
Telling us that God did it tells us absolutely nothing. It does not explain where the quarks, protons, neutrons, hydrogen, and helium came from. It does not explain the process God used to create those things from nothing nor does it explain precisely -how- God established the physical laws of the universe. God is just a stand-in for that which we do not know. As a result, using God as an explanation is using one unknown to explain another unknown.
Long ago the man Job was asked (Job 38:33), "Do you know the laws governing the heavens,
Or can you impose their authority on the earth?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd4me
The belief in God and science are not incompatible and each has a role to play and can enrich a person's life. It should be remembered that some of the foundations of modern science were laid by intelligent and capable people who believed in God.
I agree that the two do not have to be incompatible. The only time they are in conflict is when certain Christian sects demand that the Bible is true even in the face of opposing scientific evidence. However, the problem I have with God explanations is that each religion wants to lay claim to that God in order to declare that their holy books, their dogma, their history, and yes, even their hatreds and bigotry, are 100% true.
Except showing there to be an intelligence behind the universe does not, in any least way, prove that a particular religion is true. Unfortunately, that's not how many people see it.
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Originally Posted by hd4me
BTW even a young child knows that Legos have to be put together they don't just arrange themselves into complex structures by chance or random processes.
I had all my Legos in a big box. Even as teens we'd mess around with them from time to time. And I know that Legos did, in fact, stick themselves together at random. But was it truly random? Or were there specific conditions that caused this block but not that block to stick together? The idea of everything being random is not the premise of either evolution or the Big Bang. Certain elements might be random, BUT, once a trait beneficial to survival is stumbled upon, that trait remains.
So ... if I had unlimited time, I could probably build a castle "randomly" out of Lego blocks providing that the combinations of blocks beneficial to building a castle remained in place as the structure grew.
Or think of it this way. If I have six dice and I want all sixes, your idea would be rolling all six dice for each attempt. But that's not how evolution and such works. It would be like rolling six dice and getting one 6. So I roll five dice and get two more 6's. Now I roll three dice and get another 6, and so forth until all of the dice are showing a 6.
How did your god Create His instantly complete and fully finished () Universe OUT OF NOTHING?
My God didn't. He allowed it to evolve over a very long period of time, and He did not create anything out of nothing. Our universe is created out of matter that is co-eternal with God.
My God didn't. He allowed it to evolve over a very long period of time, and He did not create anything out of nothing. Our universe is created out of matter that is co-eternal with God.
Ah you gotta love religion - it gives people the ability to make stuff up on the fly to thwart any rational argument.
Wait ... wait.
When you say that your God "allowed" the universe to evolve over long periods of time ... from matter that is eternal ...
Then isn't what you're -really- saying is that God created the universe by doing absolutely nothing? And if that's the case, then why do we even need God to explain an eternal universe? Because there would have to be some kind of universe for that eternal matter to exist.
The entire universe is an illusion.
What appears to be solid really isn't.
The entire universe is a collectivation of matter, matter that is not real. Our conscious makes us think all we touch and see is real but in reality it isn't. Well, it is real but it really isn't real in the way we think it is real.
We are made up of atoms which are made up of sub-atomic particles which in themselves give off energies.
Take for instance a glass window. You can see through it, touch it, break it, push on it and bend it. Breaking it breaks the bonds of the atoms which hold it together. It is just a collection of atoms all vibrating at specific frequencies.
The universe, you and I are a collection of these atoms and their specific frequencies and energies.
So where did all these particles and atoms originate?
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) Universe OUT OF NOTHING?
