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No circular reasoning going on. But I'm still waiting for you to tell me how the universe began w/out a creator?
I don't think it's circular on your part, but it is a false (illogical) and irrelevant argument.
(a) It is illiogical to argue that, because nobody really knows how the universe began, Goddunnit has to be the answer.
(b) even if one accepts the rather human - preference or common sense 'Something had to start it off' and 'Something cannot come from nothing' (and one thing that science has taught us is that our common sense preferences often turn out to be mistaken) whatever it was doesn't have to be a god, let alone any particular personal god of a particular religion.
(c) Rifleman has shown that a more feasible alternative, thanks to recent discoveries can be postulated. Something could come from nothing and it can be explained how. It's all still very speculative, but it's more of an answer than a huge invisible human waving a magic wand. That explains nothing at all.
But I'm still waiting for you to tell me how the universe began w/out a creator?
In other words:
You don't know, therefore God.
It's a pitiful argument clinging to an equally pitiful god-of-the-gaps. The fact is ...
Creation ex nihilo is an assumption - a leap of faith.
Preternatural agency is an assumption - a leap of faith.
That's OK. Just don't fool yourself into believing it to be something beyond a reasonable inference at best. Einstein once wrote: "The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility". That there may be areas that you or I do not comprehend - or that may in fact be incomprehensible - should be cause for humility, not confidence in a theology evolved millennia ago by folks who understood far less than we do today.
By the way: I'm a Jew with some familiarity with Jewish scripture; let me suggest that creation ex nihilo may well go beyond what you think is found in Genesis.
The same facts that you use to point at a big bang.
Please point me to a scientific theory of god which predicts a 3K cosmic background radiation and the H/He ratios of the early universe. Until you can do that, the same facts used as evidence for the big bang most certainly do not point to god. We'll be waiting.
The existence of the universe is proof enough for a cause.
Why? We have lots of uncaused stuff here in the universe - how do you know for sure that the universe isn't more like those things than the things which are caused?
But more importantly, we have exactly zero other universes to test to see if they were caused, so you're trying to extrapolate from no evidence to form a conclusion about the cause/lack of cause for ours.
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I can disprove the idea that it was an impersonal cause. There is something called necessary and sufficient cause. It basically states that if both are present, the event automatically happens. If so, the universe would have been created an infinite amount of time ago...not 14 billion years, or whatever number is in vogue lately. Thus, an intelligent creator must have been the "sufficient cause" to complement the "necessary cause" that already existed.
Even if any of this is true (which it isn't), why assume that your sufficient cause must be intelligent?
No circular reasoning going on. But I'm still waiting for you to tell me how the universe began w/out a creator?
Well not in the fantasies that you believe and preach.
Do you realize how utterly desperate your "god magic" for everything that is not understood (yet) is, for you don't have the answer either, and you have shut down your reasoning when you implement the willful ignorance "god magic".
Well not in the fantasies that you believe and preach.
Do you realize how utterly desperate your "god magic" for everything that is not understood (yet) is, for you don't have the answer either, and you have shut down your reasoning when you implement the willful ignorance "god magic".
Why? We have lots of uncaused stuff here in the universe - how do you know for sure that the universe isn't more like those things than the things which are caused?
I echo the request made by Jayhawker....name a few please.
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But more importantly, we have exactly zero other universes to test to see if they were caused, so you're trying to extrapolate from no evidence to form a conclusion about the cause/lack of cause for ours.
Yet, it doesn't keep guys like you from spouting off about how things work.
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Even if any of this is true (which it isn't), why assume that your sufficient cause must be intelligent?
As I've explained in the past posts...if it was not intelligent, it would have happened as soon as the conditions arose for it to happen. Thus, the universe would have come into existence an infinite amount of time ago--which we know is not true.
As I've explained in the past posts...if it was not intelligent, it would have happened as soon as the conditions arose for it to happen. Thus, the universe would have come into existence an infinite amount of time ago
Still waiting for you to substantiate your claims.
Still waiting for you to substantiate your claims.
whatever man. I can give you the truth but I can't make you think. If your bent is to deny whatever I say, it's irrelevant what I say.
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