Jesus Had A Wife?? (Buddhism, Christian, behavior, exist)
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What is interesting is that there seems to be a gospel that claims Mary Magdalene was a disciple. If she was Jesus's wife, that would have been much less controversial than having a female disciple. As a Jew of his time, it would have been quite unusual if he had not married.
How is this relevant? To the best of my knowledge many if not most of todays scholars date these gospels to the 1st century ce.
I incorrectly stated the dates referring to fragments. You are correct that fragments have been dated earlier. Thank you for spotting that.
Even though earlier fragments have been discovered which seem to relate enough to be identified as part of what has been come to be known as the four Canonical Gospels, as far as I know they are just fragments, not the entire text. The dates I cited, which are estimates, refer to known texts that were written well after the events. Although scholars (as you indicate), may suggest earlier dates, those dates appear to be suggesting when the originals were probably written, which are not the fragments that have been discovered? If you know of any earlier versions of the entire texts that go back to the 1st century, then please by all means share them, along with some references. Gospel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
All I'm really pointing out is in relation to the recent papyrus fragment which some people seem to think it may be suggesting that Jesus had a wife. It's only reasonable to compare the Gnostic Gospels with the Canonical Gospels. The New Testament writings refer metaphorically to a "bride", generally meaning the "church" (followers), whereas the recent papyrus uses the word "wife". However, it is unknown as to how that word was used in the papyrus or if it is just another metaphorical term to mean the "church". In any case, maybe he actually had a wife, or maybe he didn't. It's unknown because the recent papyrus text is an incomplete fragment. To suggest anything more than that at the present time is sheer speculation.
I contend that the original complete texts of what have become known as the four Canonical Gospels probably no longer exist. That's not to say they don't, but nothing has been found to determine that they do. They could well have rotted or been subjected to any number of other conditions, including destruction, either intentional or unintentional. So all that remains at the present time, at least that have been discovered, are copies, and copies of copies. As such none of either are reliable as conclusive evidence describing the events. While many of the Gnostic Gospels include events that are not very realistic, the same applies to the canonical Gospels, even though many people believe them to be true (blind faith) and need no further evidence simply because it's written in their Bibles. All that's been found dating back to the 1st century (as far as I know) are more fragments which I think scholars believe to also be copies.
It raises a reasonable question. Were the copies accurately written identical to the original, or might they also contain errors, additions and speculations as well? Is it relevant? It sure is. But I suppose people will still fuss all over it, as has been done with other recent discoveries, such as I mentioned earlier. In my opinion, the papyrus has only been sensationalized by the press. Sensational headlines attract attention.
I incorrectly stated the dates referring to fragments. You are correct that fragments have been dated earlier. Thank you for spotting that.
Even though earlier fragments have been discovered which seem to relate enough to be identified as part of what has been come to be known as the four Canonical Gospels, as far as I know they are just fragments, not the entire text. The dates I cited, which are estimates, refer to known texts that were written well after the events. Although scholars (as you indicate), may suggest earlier dates, those dates appear to be suggesting when the originals were probably written, which are not the fragments that have been discovered? If you know of any earlier versions of the entire texts that go back to the 1st century, then please by all means share them, along with some references. Gospel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
All I'm really pointing out is in relation to the recent papyrus fragment which some people seem to think it may be suggesting that Jesus had a wife. It's only reasonable to compare the Gnostic Gospels with the Canonical Gospels. The New Testament writings refer metaphorically to a "bride", generally meaning the "church" (followers), whereas the recent papyrus uses the word "wife". However, it is unknown as to how that word was used in the papyrus or if it is just another metaphorical term to mean the "church". In any case, maybe he actually had a wife, or maybe he didn't. It's unknown because the recent papyrus text is an incomplete fragment. To suggest anything more than that at the present time is sheer speculation.
I contend that the original complete texts of what have become known as the four Canonical Gospels probably no longer exist. That's not to say they don't, but nothing has been found to determine that they do. They could well have rotted or been subjected to any number of other conditions, including destruction, either intentional or unintentional. So all that remains at the present time, at least that have been discovered, are copies, and copies of copies. As such none of either are reliable as conclusive evidence describing the events.
Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but it seems to me that there is a hidden message in making it clear that "God" was a heterosexual. We are currently dealing with the homosexual civil rights movement; a movement that has divided and challenged many Christian churches. The release of "new information that proves Jesus's heterosexuality" comes at a rather odd time in our current social scene.
Ah. That would be a shame but, it might be easy enough to write on a scrap of blank papyrus. Now i look at it, the writing does look rather cramped, as though somebody was trying to as mich as possible onto a small scrap. I recall that texts tended to be more spacious.
However, even antiquity had scribblers and no doubt some examination can be made to see what date the ink seems to be.
I incorrectly stated the dates referring to fragments. You are correct that fragments have been dated earlier. Thank you for spotting that.
Even though earlier fragments have been discovered which seem to relate enough to be identified as part of what has been come to be known as the four Canonical Gospels, as far as I know they are just fragments, not the entire text. The dates I cited, which are estimates, refer to known texts that were written well after the events. Although scholars (as you indicate), may suggest earlier dates, those dates appear to be suggesting when the originals were probably written, which are not the fragments that have been discovered? If you know of any earlier versions of the entire texts that go back to the 1st century, then please by all means share them, along with some references. Gospel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
All I'm really pointing out is in relation to the recent papyrus fragment which some people seem to think it may be suggesting that Jesus had a wife. It's only reasonable to compare the Gnostic Gospels with the Canonical Gospels. The New Testament writings refer metaphorically to a "bride", generally meaning the "church" (followers), whereas the recent papyrus uses the word "wife". However, it is unknown as to how that word was used in the papyrus or if it is just another metaphorical term to mean the "church". In any case, maybe he actually had a wife, or maybe he didn't. It's unknown because the recent papyrus text is an incomplete fragment. To suggest anything more than that at the present time is sheer speculation.
I contend that the original complete texts of what have become known as the four Canonical Gospels probably no longer exist. That's not to say they don't, but nothing has been found to determine that they do. They could well have rotted or been subjected to any number of other conditions, including destruction, either intentional or unintentional. So all that remains at the present time, at least that have been discovered, are copies, and copies of copies. As such none of either are reliable as conclusive evidence describing the events. While many of the Gnostic Gospels include events that are not very realistic, the same applies to the canonical Gospels, even though many people believe them to be true (blind faith) and need no further evidence simply because it's written in their Bibles. All that's been found dating back to the 1st century (as far as I know) are more fragments which I think scholars believe to also be copies.
It raises a reasonable question. Were the copies accurately written identical to the original, or might they also contain errors, additions and speculations as well? Is it relevant? It sure is. But I suppose people will still fuss all over it, as has been done with other recent discoveries, such as I mentioned earlier. In my opinion, the papyrus has only been sensationalized by the press. Sensational headlines attract attention.
This is all ok.
The main points are
(a) the fragments we have are almost certainly of later date than when the text originally appeared - the value is in saying 'the scripture can't be later than such a date. E.g a scrap of 2nd c. John would scotch any suggestion that it is a much later gospel - say of the 4th c.
(b) the scriptures are dated by internals -style or usage of Greek words or reference to events. Paul's epistles can be dated that way, though some dates I have seen suggested appear to ignore such evidence.
(c) Arguments about accurate transmission of the scriptures can end up in confusion as you suggest. On one side Dead Sea scroll accuracy is cited or accuracy of oral tradition. But that is not really relevant to the Greek tradition which is where the Gospels should be placed.
It seems obvious to me that the solution is in the discrepancies. They show just how much the gospels changed - not through scribal error or misspellings, but by deliberate revision and reworking. That of course depends on them being reworkings of originals rather than independent eyewitness documents. The original outline of the common text (identical sequences of sentences is the evidence).
However this text doesn't fit into the Latin Gospel mould but rather into the Alexandrian Gnostic mould, rather like the gospel of Mary. And I don't know whether to regard that as preserving lost or suppressed traditions about Mary or is a document written to elevate her importance.
Given that the Bible gospels imply that she was more important than they would like to admit, I'm inclined to give the Mary gospel some credit. Also this fragment - if it doesn't turn out to be a forgery.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-20-2012 at 02:24 AM..
We are currently dealing with the homosexual civil rights movement; a movement that has divided and challenged many Christian churches. The release of "new information that proves Jesus's heterosexuality" comes at a rather odd time in our current social scene.
There has never been any doubt of his heterosexuality. He was without sin. Homosexual behavior is a sin. There was no perversion in His Godly nature.
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