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Old 09-21-2012, 11:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
You answered your question in the first sentence...
I have zero tolerance for pathetic bigotry masquerading as secularism.
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:08 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule View Post
I have zero tolerance for pathetic bigotry masquerading as secularism.
Again, your zero tolerance counts for nothing. It's true, threats to children can arise anywhere. It's just significant that in an organization that is, frankly pretty meaningless without some divine overseeing, this sort of thing can go on without a hint, and pretty alarming that there is a tendency to ensure that it stays that way, from within.

Those who act as apologists for this are part of the problem.
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Again, your zero tolerance counts for nothing. It's true, threats to children can arise anywhere. It's just significant that in an organization that is, frankly pretty meaningless without some divine overseeing, this sort of thing can go on without a hint, and pretty alarming that there is a tendency to ensure that it stays that way, from within.

Those who act as apologists for this are part of the problem.
And it can even go on in secular organizations full of people that pretend to be too smart for religion.
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule View Post
I have zero tolerance for pathetic bigotry masquerading as secularism.
But you do have tolerance for bigotry masquerading as theism? Gotcha.

Seriously, I am well aware that there are a great many theists who are not bigoted, who are perfectly willing to live and let live, and who do not wink at misdeeds within their own ranks. But surely you cannot honestly believe that there is not a tremendous amount of nastiness, bigotry, and intolerance being excused and justified by religious beliefs? In the case of this story, the real issue is not that children were abused, but that religious authorities were sitting on it! Child abuse happens, like it or not, religious or not, but when the religious use their faith to try to justify not reporting a crime?!?

As I pointed out in my last post, religion is an incredibly powerful tool for manipulation. To ignore that is foolish at best.

-NoCapo
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:44 PM
 
584 posts, read 594,517 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
But you do have tolerance for bigotry masquerading as theism? Gotcha.
No, as a matter of fact you do not. I oppose bigotry irrespective of source.

Sexual predation is a deranged act of violence. It is of particular concern wherever and whenever you have an asymetrical relationship of trust and power - be it a church, a Boy Scout troup, or a congressional staff. To suggest that it is a result of theology is stupid in the extreme, a stupidity that reflects a near mindless bigotry.

The point is not to 'protect your child from church leaders' but to protect your child in all asymmetrical relationships.
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Old 09-21-2012, 02:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule View Post
No, as a matter of fact you do not. I oppose bigotry irrespective of source.

Sexual predation is a deranged act of violence. It is of particular concern wherever and whenever you have an asymetrical relationship of trust and power - be it a church, a Boy Scout troup, or a congressional staff. To suggest that it is a result of theology is stupid in the extreme, a stupidity that reflects a near mindless bigotry.

The point is not to 'protect your child from church leaders' but to protect your child in all asymmetrical relationships.
I agree with you totally on this. In general theology is not a real indicator or cause of the bad behavior. Religion does not hake people into sexual predators. My beef with religion, particularly hierarchical ones is that they create the most asymmetrical relationship possible, that of the unknowable divine. It is this nearly infinite asymmetry that makes it so potentially dangerous.

I was taught when I was a young man that it was to Issac's credit that he obeyed Abraham, even to the point of death, because Abraham was a man of God acting on divine instruction. The problem is related to the one your brought up in your other thread (A very interesting topic, even if I am not wanted there), how do you independently verify personal communication with the divine? If you cannot, how do you know if abusive behavior by religious leaders is divinely sanctioned or not? It places the believer is a very difficult position, and is rife for abuse, either out of malice or just pettiness.

I suspect that the church leaders who were covering this up were trying to find ways to avoid public reaction, maintain the dignity of the church, and avoid a stink, as opposed to them endorsing the behavior. The end result is they were abusing an asymmetrical relationship, maybe the most asymmetrical relationship possible, as much as the abuser themselves.

-NoCapo
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Old 09-21-2012, 02:50 PM
 
584 posts, read 594,517 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
I agree with you totally on this. In
Rubbish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
Religion does not hake people into sexual predators. My beef with religion, particularly hierarchical ones is that they create the most asymmetrical relationship possible, that of the unknowable divine.
Let's just stop this silliness. If and when you have peer-reviewed statistics showing predation to be more likely in religious institutions, feel free to present them. Until then, you're simply clinging to your ad hominem.

The thread title is a bigoted smear which seeks to denigrate church leaders as a class by association. It employs the same slimy semantics as that often used to denigrate members of a particular race or creed. Doing so is repugnant and defending it is reprehensible.
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Old 09-21-2012, 03:30 PM
 
3,402 posts, read 2,771,867 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule View Post
Let's just stop this silliness. If and when you have peer-reviewed statistics showing predation to be more likely in religious institutions, feel free to present them. Until then, you're simply clinging to your ad hominem.
Yes, lets!

My point with the initial quote had to do with irrational bigotry, which I find very prevalent in organized religion. I have tried to clarify several times, that I do not believe sexual predation is related to religion. You are accusing me of holding a position I do not hold and I refuse to attempt to justify a position I do not hold, just to make you feel better.

I am far more interested in the issues of trust, authority,and the power imbalances in religion, so that is what I have been talking about. If you don't want to talk about it, fine. I think these are important issues, but maybe you don't want to discuss them with a non-believer.

-NoCapo
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Old 09-21-2012, 03:40 PM
 
584 posts, read 594,517 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
I am far more interested in the issues of trust, authority,and the power imbalances in religion, so that is what I have been talking about. If you don't want to talk about it, fine. I think these are important issues, but maybe you don't want to discuss them with a non-believer.

-NoCapo
Start a new thread. I will be happy to discuss the matter.

What is noteworthy and symptomatic about this thread is - in my opinion - the character of it's title.
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Old 09-21-2012, 11:10 PM
 
16,294 posts, read 28,414,577 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule View Post
In other words: theism promotes sexual abuse. Brilliant. And what is the danger of trusting your children to ugly and irrational bigots?
No, but it sure seems to attract these sick puppies as a place where they can use religion to lure victims, and threaten them to remain silent.
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