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Old 10-18-2007, 03:35 AM
 
56 posts, read 117,356 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
I believe that God=Love, so I already worship God by being kind and helping others.
I believe that love primarily needs to be expressed through true action and not 'inaction' like worship through prayer and / or song.
I don't see why God would need (more) song and praise.
Then again I believe that action speaks louder than words ever will.
To repeat what others have posted. God does not need our worship. WE need to worship Him. He asks for our worship not because he needs it, but because He knows we need to connect with him. Worship is both- that is, what you call "true action" and "inaction. If you worship by praying, getting to know what he thinks trhough the Bible, and sharing with others that share the same faith and encourage eachother trhough love and community, that is worship, and yes.... God does want us to go to church and share with the community of faith to help each other through the journey. After all, one of the ways we experience the love of God is through people. You are also right, worship is helping your neighbour and doing what is good. If you have a relationship with God and learn the essence of His character, you will certainly and unmistakably love Him. Not because you HAVE to, but because He is so irresistably lovely, and when you love Him, you begin loving that which He loves the most, that is PEOPLE. So yes, in order for you to trully love people with the same love that God loves you, that is, unconditionally and selflessly, you need to understand the love of God for you first. Otherwise, what it becomes its just random acts of kindness.... and although this are good, they are limited because their roots are not unconditional love in the sense that God gives it. Being kidn to someone is very different from LOVING someone. 1 Corinthians 13 tells us about love. It is not self seeking, it keeps no record of wrong, it seeks what is just and fair and it rejoices in the truth, etc. This is the love God has for us. Imagine having a love in your heart that keeps no record of wrong or that its motives are not self seeking! The world would look very different. And exercising this love too...is worship!
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Old 10-18-2007, 03:44 AM
 
56 posts, read 117,356 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Predos View Post
And the bible saying that god said "you shall have no god above me" and the biblical instructions on worship are not demands of god? You mean people made the whole thing up? I have said before in other threads that I feel the bible is at best a good moral guide. How you treat others is a moral decision, not a method of worship.
I think it is both. Without faith and God however, a moral choice is a lot harder to do. Good morals exist because of God. If there is no God, then moral values wouldnt exist, and if they did, they would be meaningless.
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Old 10-18-2007, 03:53 AM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,712 posts, read 13,439,515 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pensivesedition View Post
I think it is both. Without faith and God however, a moral choice is a lot harder to do. Good morals exist because of God. If there is no God, then moral values wouldnt exist, and if they did, they would be meaningless.
So which God are we talking about? Does that mean those who do not have faith in your particular God are less apt to make good moral decisions? Does this mean that those of other faiths have morals that are meaningless?
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Old 10-18-2007, 03:59 AM
 
56 posts, read 117,356 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by raechel60
I don't think it was about gambling, but about exchange. IIRC pigeons were used as a sacrifice (but instead of killed they were let free) but you had to buy these pigeons from the temple (because they were especially blessed or something). People were forbidden to bring in their own animals of sacrifice.
So the Jewish Temple got its revenue from having a monopoly, just like the Catholics had their monopoly on the sale of indulgences.
They became a den of thieves because only they could sell certain items to the people.
And they had no problem with convincing their believers that they needed these ‘items’. So they controlled the demand and the supply.

Somehow Marx’s quote about religion being the opium of the masses gains another meaning. If religion is the opium of the masses the temples and churches are the drug-pushers. Like drug pushers they convince you that you need their product (which you don’t) then once you become addicted they convince you that they are the only suppliers.
And Drug-pushers are still thieves.
Unfortunally for Marx, he lived in a time and setting where the church was a bit confused about the meaning of true worship. However, just because he perceived the misunderstanding and the ill intentions of some of the clergy of the church to be 'the opium of the masses" doesnt mean that the message of the church is wrong. If you look through out history, it is has been precisely chritianity that has brought freedom when the word of God is taken seriously and with a pure heart. Marx took the religion out of the equation and instead gave to people a different kindof opium...one that gave them hopelessness and up until this day, did not make any of their existance any better. Dont believe me?? Look at the development of societies that have had religion, namely, christianity, at the foundation of their country. They are the ones with the most freedom and higher standards of living. Yet the farthest they stray away from those principles upon which they were founded, the more do their societies become mediocre. Ultimatly, Marx, like Nietzche and others who believed that God was a made up concept to achieve social control could not really prove that without God life was better. Au contraire!! Nietcze believed that the christian concept of compassion was a tool to make docile bodies out of people. Compassion depleated the resources of society, that is, if you lost your legs, you should be done away with because you would not be able to apport your share to society and instead would be a burden to the system. Ironically enough, Nietzche died of sifilis, and guess who took care of him?? his mother and his sister ...OUT OF COMPASSION!! If the moral values of christianity have been harmful for society then Marx's values were absolutely destructive and ignorant. It completly ignored human nature and the intrinsic need of human beings to worship..if not God ....it will be something else.,..but something will be worshiped one way or another.
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Old 10-18-2007, 04:03 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,568 posts, read 16,206,905 times
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Originally Posted by pensivesedition
Quote:
If you worship by praying, getting to know what he thinks trhough the Bible, and sharing with others that share the same faith and encourage eachother trhough love and community, that is worship, and yes.... God does want us to go to church and share with the community of faith to help each other through the journey.
What you call praying here I call meditating or studying. I do not ask a question to God, but I try to figure out the logic of the story in the bible or any other book.
I do not pray to God and ask Him to make the world a better place. I believe that as pointless as asking the moon to make the world a better place. It is my opinion that you have to understand how the world works before you try to change it.
I generally do not need to go to a church to learn to understand how the world works.

I have faith that 1 individual is able to change the world.
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Old 10-18-2007, 04:25 AM
 
56 posts, read 117,356 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
So which God are we talking about? Does that mean those who do not have faith in your particular God are less apt to make good moral decisions? Does this mean that those of other faiths have morals that are meaningless?
No...of course not. That is, religion is what validates moral choices. Why would I try to be an honest person and live a life of dignity otherwise? Think about it... would you be honest in private if you could get away with it? If a serial killer is never caught.... is he good or is he bad? and who would make the judgment? You? who are you? the government?? if so... then as long as nobody knows...you are fundamentally an amoral person...not good, not bad. How about a child molester? If noone catches him... is he good or bad? and if he gets caught.... why would you judge him as bad if all he is doing something he feels like doing? Moral values are not like flavours of ice-cream where you can just pick your favourite flavour. Raping a child is wrong. Morally wrong. Regardless if you get caught or not.
This moral fiber is intrinsic in human beings. Even in ancient civilizations, moral values were there to have as a standard to keep social order and to avoid anarchy. Those values is what christians would attribute to be the zeal of God's image in his creation. We can distinguish what is morally harmful or not because of the likeness of God in us.
Religion, as moral values, is not there to choose the flavour of ice-cream you want. I know this sounds harsh for some people, but the fact is that people forget to search for truth in favor of post-modern concepts of reality (whatever works for you is true). This doesnt work with moral values, and it doesnt work with religion. This is a complicated issue that would be impossible to discuss in this forum, but the fact is that religion, or spirituallity, or however you want to call it , is a personal one and it should be one that searches and longs for truth, not for whatever does not offend my neighbour. So to answer your question more clearly. Religion validates moral values, but not all religions are based on truth. So all religions are good in the sense that they encourage people to act with propriety. But what you need to ask is not wether I believe my religion is the only one that is good, but instead, you should ask, for yourself, without fear of being labeled as intolerant, if there is a God, how does he want you to relate to him? This is not necesarily easy, but it is a necesary undertaking. You can believe whatever you want about God and religion, but if your questions is not born from an honest heart and you are not willing or open to truly receive an answer, then the questions are futile and a waste of time.
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Old 10-18-2007, 04:37 AM
 
Location: Earth
24,620 posts, read 28,236,422 times
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Religion does not validate moral choices for most of the world. Are you saying that only your brand of religion can make moral decisions?

The war in Iraq is not moral. George Bush said that "the Almighty" told him to kill the Iraqis. Is refusing medical care to indigent kids moral?

I, unfortunately, find less of a moral compass with most christians I run across, than with any other group.

YMMV.
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Old 10-18-2007, 04:47 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,568 posts, read 16,206,905 times
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Originally Posted by pensivesedition
Quote:
Dont believe me?? Look at the development of societies that have had religion, namely, christianity, at the foundation of their country.
Yet strangely all Christian nations had no qualms about slavery and feeling superior towards heathens. They conquered the heathens and took their lands and ruled over them as if they were God Himself.
And they all did that in the name of the church.

Quote:
Nietcze believed that the christian concept of compassion was a tool to make docile bodies out of people.

Ironically enough, Nietzche died of sifilis, and guess who took care of him?? his mother and his sister ...OUT OF COMPASSION!! If the moral values of christianity have been harmful for society then Marx's values were absolutely destructive and ignorant.
Nietzsche never denied that the soul thrives on value. With his worldfamous sentence God is dead, most people do not read the rest And we killed him. So Nietzsche merely meant that man had killed God which, if not careful, would result in nihilism.

Quote:
To Nietzsche, it [nihilism] was irrational because the human soul thrives on value. Nihilism, then, was in a sense like suicide and mass murder all at once. He considered faith in the categories of reason, seeking either to overcome or ignore nature, to be the cause of such nihilism. "We have measured the value of the world according to categories that refer to a purely fictitious world". He saw this philosophy as present in Christianity (which he described as 'slave morality'), Buddhism, morality, asceticism and any excessively skeptical philosophy.
Nihilism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
On Marxism or communism:
In the end what others understood of communism or Marxism baffled Marx himself.
Quote:
“what is known as ‘Marxism’ in France is, indeed, an altogether peculiar product — so much so that Marx once said to Lafargue: ‘Ce qu'il y a de certain c'est que moi, je ne suis pas Marxiste.’ [If anything is certain, it is that I myself am not a Marxist]”
[Engels, 1882]
Marx Quotes: Quotes from Karl Marx and Frederick Engels
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Old 10-18-2007, 04:48 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,493 posts, read 7,312,385 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
Religion does not validate moral choices for most of the world. Are you saying that only your brand of religion can make moral decisions?

The war in Iraq is not moral. George Bush said that "the Almighty" told him to kill the Iraqis. Is refusing medical care to indigent kids moral?

I, unfortunately, find less of a moral compass with most christians I run across, than with any other group.

YMMV.
I'd like to see where Bush said that, and where he refused medical care to indigant kids. ( in the politics forum, this is philosophy and religion )
I am not a big fan of his, but the facts are the facts.
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Old 10-18-2007, 04:49 AM
 
56 posts, read 117,356 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by pensivesedition
What you call praying here I call meditating or studying. I do not ask a question to God, but I try to figure out the logic of the story in the bible or any other book.
I do not pray to God and ask Him to make the world a better place. I believe that as pointless as asking the moon to make the world a better place. It is my opinion that you have to understand how the world works before you try to change it.
I generally do not need to go to a church to learn to understand how the world works.

I have faith that 1 individual is able to change the world.
And you are free to feel the way you feel my friend! I on the other feel that the world can be changed before I understand it. It is way too complex to understand in one lifetime. Going to church is not about understanding how the world works necesarily. CHurch does not make you any better and it doesnt give you a special standing anywhere. Church is not a know-it-all-fix-it all organization. Church is simply a group of people that recognize their imperfections and understand that the world could work better if the right principles are in place. Christian organizations are the ones that go first where people are in need of help. That is what church is. Do christians understand exactly how the world works? not even close. But do christians understand that there is a higher being that wants them to help the wounds of a hurting world?? For the most part, yes. Of course all sorts of christians hold different views on differnt issues. Christians are by no means a homogenous group. As for prayer, well, it might be that for you it is as pointless as asking the moon. Point taken and I respect your opinion here as well. On my part, I have in fact seen people being healed, people letting go of deep rooted hurts, people being free from hate, from jealousy, from guilt, and circumstances changed. I have experienced so many things that I do believe that God is there to help those who seek him. He is, after all a respectfull being and be assured that he will not interfere in your live without your permission. Now, whether you believe that what I have experienced is true or a mere fact of imagination or of collective delusion, that is certainly up to you. The fact is, it is happening, and I believe it to be far more effective for the world than simply living in the world of ideas trying to figure out how things work. Commendable perhaps, but innefective. Then again, it has more to do with how you see your role in the world, or IF you see yourself as having a role in the universe for that matter. Again, I know what it is to be without Him. And I know what it is to be with Him. I have chosen the later, and it is so far delicious!
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