U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-24-2012, 09:51 AM
 
31,371 posts, read 33,937,745 times
Reputation: 14936

Advertisements

What creator and what unalienable Rights, did they create.

I would like to see the religious text which establishes this as a factual statement.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-24-2012, 09:57 AM
 
19,943 posts, read 14,862,014 times
Reputation: 1988
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
What creator and what unalienable Rights, did they create.

I would like to see the religious text which establishes this as a factual statement.
Why would you think there is a Bible verse that says it specifically? It was the opinion of the Founding Fathers of this country...they weren't prophets.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-24-2012, 01:55 PM
 
7,379 posts, read 7,088,408 times
Reputation: 1258
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
What creator and what unalienable Rights, did they create.

I would like to see the religious text which establishes this as a factual statement.
Many of the founding fathers didn't believe this themselves. If you think of their expected audience you'll understand the reason this was written. They were writing this declaration to the King of England, a very religious person, trying to relate to his sense of a "creator". IMO, this statement carries much more weight that it was intended, and the theists jump on it any chance they get.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-24-2012, 02:42 PM
 
19,943 posts, read 14,862,014 times
Reputation: 1988
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
Many of the founding fathers didn't believe this themselves. If you think of their expected audience you'll understand the reason this was written. They were writing this declaration to the King of England, a very religious person, trying to relate to his sense of a "creator". IMO, this statement carries much more weight that it was intended, and the theists jump on it any chance they get.
Many of them were very religious. Not all were Christian--but many were religious.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-24-2012, 02:55 PM
 
31,371 posts, read 33,937,745 times
Reputation: 14936
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Why would you think there is a Bible verse that says it specifically? It was the opinion of the Founding Fathers of this country...they weren't prophets.
If you've followed my posts regarding religion you would know that I don't hold to the proposition that god or whatever grants any rights whatsoever. But in the discussions that pop-up from time to time the issue of natural rights/god give rights is raised, so I am looking for any justification that anyone would care to raise that would indicate the presence of some higher law giver who grants such rights.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-24-2012, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,661 posts, read 78,903,456 times
Reputation: 36346
I think what they were saying is that Humans are endowed with the same inalienable rights as fish in the sea and birds in the sky, and no man has natural paramountcy over another. Their "creator" was left vague (they intentionally did not say God), since all things are here because of the the universal forces of time, space, and whatever else there is.

In other words, all things that fell into place as a result of small-C creation were equally meant to be.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-24-2012, 04:07 PM
 
7,399 posts, read 4,492,414 times
Reputation: 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
What creator and what unalienable Rights, did they create.

I would like to see the religious text which establishes this as a factual statement.
Can't help you with "religious text"...but I kinda addressed this subject before:
//www.city-data.com/forum/15200069-post126.html

Whaddayathink?

Merry Christmas!!
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-24-2012, 04:24 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
11,443 posts, read 10,173,052 times
Reputation: 19240
I view the use of the word creator as poetic license. It was a certain way of speaking in a time that was somewhat more religious than ours.

The concept is that all people (even if they said "men") have rights, simply by virtue of being human, not due to accidents of royal birth.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-06-2013, 03:46 PM
 
1 posts, read 1,149 times
Reputation: 10
Default What rights and what creator?

Most of the founders were part of masonic lodges or other secret societies making them for their time modern gnostics. The creator they discuss about - life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - matches Lucifer's character more than the Biblical Creator - YHWH/Jesus Christ. In truth - the fruit of the ' life liberty and pursuit of happiness' has been death, injustice, murder and all sorts of interpretations of "pursuit of happiness" These are not the fruits brought forth by the Holy Spirit.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-06-2013, 04:09 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,661 posts, read 78,903,456 times
Reputation: 36346
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
What creator and what unalienable Rights, did they create.

I would like to see the religious text which establishes this as a factual statement.
It is not a religious statement, so religious texts are not germane to the statement. What the Founders meant was that those rights existed before the men in that room at the time had anything to say about it, and the fruit of their labors was to take those rights into account. It was not their intention nor province to explain the source of those rights, so they used the vague term "creator" to describe all that which had been created before they formulated their Constitution. Just as if they had said the Atlantic Ocean had been endowed by its creator with liquidity, without needing to be held to account for the personality or attributes of that creator who made the water wet.

If you, as an article of faith, insist on limiting the concept of "creator" to Your Christian God Figment, you are free to do so, but you have no right to hold the Founders accountable for justifying their ideals according to your dogma.

Last edited by jtur88; 02-06-2013 at 04:18 PM..
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2021, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top