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There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to conclude that we humans are cosmically in any way more relevant to the universe, reality or existence than specks of dust kicked around by an errant wind.
We are no more significant than ants.
There is no evidence--nor has there ever been--for any afterlife which involves a retention of memory, personality, a "soul" etc.
When we die, our remains might nourish some soil or, if cremated, the heat we create will mingle with the atmosphere, and in that way the "energy" of what once was us will go on or become part of some larger system. That's about it.
I feel that it does. Humans seem to place so much importance on their existence, that we imagine that we are also entitled to immortality. Shame on our conceit, and may we join the rest of existence by accepting a time when WE won't. Hug somebody you love today, busterkeaton
Yeah, I have always thought a belief in an afterlife is pretty silly.
However, it makes some people happy, so there is no problem.
No, I don't see it that way I believe death in this life is the start of a new onw after this one is over. That's just what I believe I don't think it will be better then the life I'm living now just different. For those why believe that they will be getting rewards & such yeah that would be considered egocentric for sure.
I believe that the idea of an afterlife is egocentric, as well as more generally the idea that a God Almighty, Ruler of Heaven and Earth(tm) would give a whit about any of us individually or collectively. But in fairness I think that much of what passes for Western culture is egocentric. That Christianity generally codifies it rather than meaningfully speaking out against it, is not a point in its favor.
I believe that my life is of no particular significance whatsoever. This is both humbling and liberating. The liberating part is that I am relieved of the need to always be right. Theism posits that its adherents have Special Knowledge of how reality works and then must strenuously work overtime, day and night, to cover up all the inconsistencies between its teachings and actual reality. Those who can't take the resulting cognitive dissonance, leave. That was the main cause of my exit, stage left.
Theists will object that my statement of belief above is cause for despair. This is true, if you need to be special, beloved, and have a Sky Daddy stacking the deck in your favor. If you are content to be yourself then it is no problem at all. Once I was smug in the belief that I knew the end of things from the beginning, that I was smarter than scientists, stronger enough to prevail against the very gates of hell, able to leap tall cancers with a single prayer ... now I'm just another working stiff doing my best to take care of my family, my customers, and my community. It suffices.
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Originally Posted by Griffis
There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to conclude that we humans are cosmically in any way more relevant to the universe, reality or existence than specks of dust kicked around by an errant wind.
We are no more significant than ants.
There is no evidence--nor has there ever been--for any afterlife which involves a retention of memory, personality, a "soul" etc.
When we die, our remains might nourish some soil or, if cremated, the heat we create will mingle with the atmosphere, and in that way the "energy" of what once was us will go on or become part of some larger system. That's about it.
I would not say these views evoke despair so much as sadness at under-valuing the capabilities that we possess in our consciousness. Creation is an amazing phenomenon . . . and we possess it within our very own consciousness. We enjoy its products and they enrich our lives through what we call entertainment, books, movies, music, art, etc. Could this be a reflection of being in the "image and likeness" of God . . . possessing God's creative power within our consciousness? Abandoning a Creator to the whims and caprice of euphemisms for our ignorance (randomness, "natural" selection, "self-organization," "self-reproduction," "emergent property,"etc.) is a sad withdrawal from reality, IMO. It is like "mother-in-law-itis" . . . ignoring the existence of your mother-in-law and focusing only on what she does.
Consciousness must come from somewhere and exist for a reason. That it has creative power is suggestive that it is important to the universe . . . which embodies Creation. To believe we and our consciousness are unimportant to the universe is at best a premature conclusion borne of our ignorance. It is certainly NOT a forgone conclusion as embodied in atheism. If our consciousness is important to God . . . then an afterlife as consciousness would not be an unreasonable expectation. In my view, God's consciousness is the universal field that establishes our reality. Our consciousness is a "cellular" component of that field that will continue long after our physical body and brain stops producing it. That implies an afterlife of some sort.
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Originally Posted by reed067
Egocentric?
No, I don't see it that way I believe death in this life is the start of a new onw after this one is over. That's just what I believe I don't think it will be better then the life I'm living now just different. For those why believe that they will be getting rewards & such yeah that would be considered egocentric for sure.
You are an obviously intelligent, thoughtful person, MysticPhD. I admire and appreciate your posts and find much of the personal philosophy you have espoused here very interesting and worth reading.
But I don't necessarily believe there is anything magical or supernatural or eternal to our consciousness and I see no reason whatsoever to default to the belief that there is a Creator or that we, the world and the universe were "created."
I certainly believe things exist and phenomena occur that are beyond our knowledge and understanding and which we perhaps will never even come to know about, but I tend to think that all we will ever perceive will eventually come to have a natural explanation.
I like to think of the old adage: "Don't go looking for unicorns until you've run out of ponies."
You are an obviously intelligent, thoughtful person, MysticPhD. I admire and appreciate your posts and find much of the personal philosophy you have espoused here very interesting and worth reading.
But I don't necessarily believe there is anything magical or supernatural or eternal to our consciousness and I see no reason whatsoever to default to the belief that there is a Creator or that we, the world and the universe were "created."
I certainly believe things exist and phenomena occur that are beyond our knowledge and understanding and which we perhaps will never even come to know about, but I tend to think that all we will ever perceive will eventually come to have a natural explanation.
Thank you for the kind words and I agree with you that everything is natural. You should know that I do not accept the concept of supernatural. It does not exist. Only things we do not currently understand or cannot explain exist. Magical thinking is reserved for religions.
The eternal nature of our consciousness resides in the fact that it is a composite form of a resonant neural energy field. The only thing that can happen to it would be to be transformed into another form. All the physical components of our body and brain are matter and will decompose and be transformed. But our composite consciousness neural field does not and cannot reside in matter and we do not currently know of anything that can transform a "Griffis consciousness energy field" into something else. Hence the belief it is eternal.
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I like to think of the old adage: "Don't go looking for unicorns until you've run out of ponies."
I don't think there is an afterlife. That's because scientific evidence shows that you need a functioning brain to be alive and after your brain stops functioning (and by functioning I mean registering activity), then you are considered dead.
So the difference between being alive and being dead could be just activity in the brain. We are our brain. What is the very essence of us, what makes me me and you you, is our brain.
The belief in eternal oblivion after death stems from the idea that the brain creates the mind; therefore, when the brain dies, the mind ceases to exist. Some reporters describe this state as "eternal nothingness".
I feel that it does. Humans seem to place so much importance on their existence, that we imagine that we are also entitled to immortality. Shame on our conceit, and may we join the rest of existence by accepting a time when WE won't. Hug somebody you love today, busterkeaton
You have to give up your own existence and adopt God's. Thats what theism is about and I think we have a tough time accepting that.
If our consciousness is important to God . . . then an afterlife as consciousness would not be an unreasonable expectation.
I actually agree with this statement. What makes you think that your consciousness is important to God? What has he done to affirm it or support it, such that you've concluded that you are important?
As the lyrics to a song say, it's easy to conclude that love is only for the lucky and the strong. People who are lucky in love, self-actualization, fulfillment, etc., find it easy to exult in the ideas and institutions they think have supported their success. What you forget is that many, many people who are equally dedicated to those ideas and institutions have completely different results. The logical conclusion is that, at the very least, there is no simple cause / effect relationship between the two; at worst, there is no relationship at all.
Ardent theists are simply people who have not yet been disabused of such notions of graspable, accessible connections between their cosmology / worldview and actual reality, and/or are sufficiently credulous to accept the assertions of others and society that such connections exist in the absence of evidence.
You assert that consciousness MUST come from somewhere but you're not content for it to just be what it is, to arise from simple cause and effect; it has to have a transcendant cause. What must it transcend? The human condition. Which begs the question, why would a creator even bother with the human condition? Existence, if it's so gosh-darned important, should bypass such an unworthy detour as earthly existence and go straight to the main point, which is the well being and happiness of all. If one must struggle through a "veil of tears" to just glimpse a satisfactory existence then the creator is just a sadist whose attention, perhaps, it would actually be unwise to attract ;-)
I actually agree with this statement. What makes you think that your consciousness is important to God? What has he done to affirm it or support it, such that you've concluded that you are important?
<snip>
You assert that consciousness MUST come from somewhere but you're not content for it to just be what it is, to arise from simple cause and effect; it has to have a transcendant cause. What must it transcend? The human condition. Which begs the question, why would a creator even bother with the human condition? Existence, if it's so gosh-darned important, should bypass such an unworthy detour as earthly existence and go straight to the main point, which is the well being and happiness of all. If one must struggle through a "veil of tears" to just glimpse a satisfactory existence then the creator is just a sadist whose attention, perhaps, it would actually be unwise to attract ;-)
I understand and agree with much of your reticence to attract the attention of what seems a hostile and sadistic Source. I spent the first 30+ years of my life in a similar state of mind. My experience in deep meditation eliminated my options (FOR ME) so I spent the next 40+ years trying to explain to my intellect what heretofore had been inexplicable and unacceptable. I still have unpleasant emotional reactions to the "red in tooth and claw" aspects of our reality.
The dawning reality of it was slow but the convergence of science and the speculations in the "spiritual fossil record" was probative (FOR ME). The analogy I use to our own mini "universe" (that is our body) is instructive. ALL the mandates that govern the lives of our individual cells and the many other biotic entities that inhabit our mini "universe" stem from our EXISTENCE (not our Will) . . . as embodied in the requirements for our survival and perpetuation. There are many unpleasant and destructive aspects involved in the maintenance and perpetuation of our life. It seems reasonable that the mandates for the operation and function of our entire reality would stem from the EXISTENCE of God (not His Will) . . . as embodied in the requirements for His survival and perpetuation.
It was a simple postulate that the existence of our unique consciousness field could easily be seen as cellular components of the greater consciousness field of God (the universal field). All the emphasis on the character and content of our consciousness could represent the inherent requirement to resonate with the characteristics of the greater field. The idea that the overarching characteristic is agape love was an easy corollary to evince . . . given the uniformity in the "spiritual fossil record" across cultures and generations . . . the underlying concept of self-control over our baser drives. Of course, having the benefit of encountering a consciousness that embodied that very characteristic . . . unconditional love and acceptance . . . in deep meditation made it easier for me to accept the conclusions. It ultimately made the untwisting and unraveling of the many distortions in the Christian religions easier . . . because the descriptions of Christ's character is identical to that which I encountered . . . and which is embodied in agape love.YMMV.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 12-31-2012 at 12:52 PM..
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