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And sadly, irrespective of belief, folks are typically WEDDED to that belief. Even real scientists have this problem, even the smartest we ever had, Einstein did not like some things that his mind pointed to. I came across this quote recently on the melting-pot called FaceBook
I spent 30+ years wedded to my conservative Christian faith, and then I started asking questions and not getting answers. It makes me sad to this day.
They are doing harm when they try to force their false beliefs on other people (teaching creationism in school, forcing their morality on a secular society, etc.)
You know, when I was a teenager, I was really into occultism. Very spooky. While I encountered a few pearl clutchers, and frightened a few concerned relatives, I perceived that the Christian world was out to GET ME and I had to be as offensive as possible as a form of defense.
In hindsight, while I still don't agree with Christians on any number of topics, I no longer perceive them by and large to be my enemies. Indeed I find the concept of having enemies at all to be rather absurd. I was considerably less persecuted when I made a habit of thrusting my nonconformity under everyone's noses than I thought I was at the time. And while I perpetually made a loud fuss about Christians "shoving their religion down my throat," if anyone was doing the shoving it was me.
But I was a teenager, and as everyone knows even the smartest teenager's brain isn't fully cooked yet.
They do not teach creationism in my sons' public schools. If they did, I would tell them that some believe that, and it is one of many things in the world that people believe. There is no absolute right or wrong to it, it all comes down to whatever you are comfortable and happy in your heart with believing. I relentlessly talk to my kids about philosophy and how to live a decent life and be good people, but they are free to find their own religious faith (if any) when the time is right for them.
Christians have as much right to spew words about what they think as anyone. I don't begrudge them that. There are a few pockets that are legitimately malicious and awful, like those WBC people, but generally it should be possible to agree to disagree...and if you feel the need to tear apart someone's worldview because you disagree with it, you're no better than the ones you hate.
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Ultimately facts are secondary to feelings. We want eternal life, or security or whatnot, so even if the facts were to go against that, we'd find SOMETHING to cling on to to keep that alive. That's why many who've left Christianity don't go straight to atheism but seek New Age religion instead.
Why would you want to make anyone's whole worldview fall apart, if they are doing you no harm?
Because they are doing harm! They won't stop their heavy proselytizing and their fervent hopes that they can re-organize the entire global culture into a nice Christian-dominated paradigm.
It's also why we resist the incorporation of voodoo nonsense into the high-school curriculum. Non-science in a science class? Rubbish. Stop the door to dor visits as well. I'm on private property, but that does not seem to slow them down!
We will act when the odor of the fear of the truth is palpable in the air!, but where it's also to be replaced, with cultural totality, with the usual supernatural mumbo-jumbo!
Because they are doing harm! They won't stop their heavy proselytizing and their fervent hopes that they can re-organize the entire global culture into a nice Christian-dominated paradigm.
Stop that stuff...
And so on...
It's also why we resist the incorporation of voodoo nonsense into the high-school curriculum. Non-science in a science class? Rubbish. Stop the door to dor visits as well. I'm on private property, but that does not seem to slow them down!
We will act when the odor of the fear of the truth is palpable in the air!, but where it's also to be replaced, with cultural totality, with the usual supernatural mumbo-jumbo!
You stop and we'll also stop. Easy as that!
From your use of the pronoun "you" responding to my statement, I take it you perhaps think I'm a Christian?
I assure you I'm absolutely NOT.
I'm just tolerant. And I don't judge a broader group of individuals by the actions of certain ones. I also do not think that all Muslims are out to blow me up or force me into a burqa. I will form my opinions more fairly on a case-by-case basis.
There are many Christians who don't care if you want to worship your toothpaste, seriously just living their lives. My little brother is a devout Christian, and much as I lived most of my life feeling negative towards Christians in general as you seem to, I realized that he is linking his faith to healthy living and good deeds...it's actually a very cool thing the way he does it. His "missionary trips" were not to forcibly convert anyone to anything. He built houses and planted vegetable gardens for poor people in third world countries, and then played songs about Jesus on his acoustic guitar. If anyone wanted to hear more, he was up for it...if they didn't, he didn't try and make them listen. And he never tells anyone they are going to hell. He's a happy, peaceful, and generally good guy.
I know that there are far more vocal representations of the obnoxious variety of various Christian subsets, but there are a lot of 'em that are just living their lives and don't go out of their way to be arse-holes.
From your use of the pronoun "you" responding to my statement, I take it you perhaps think I'm a Christian?
I assure you I'm absolutely NOT.
I'm just tolerant. And I don't judge a broader group of individuals by the actions of certain ones. I also do not think that all Muslims are out to blow me up or force me into a burqa. I will form my opinions more fairly on a case-by-case basis.
There are many Christians who don't care if you want to worship your toothpaste, seriously just living their lives. My little brother is a devout Christian, and much as I lived most of my life feeling negative towards Christians in general as you seem to, I realized that he is linking his faith to healthy living and good deeds...it's actually a very cool thing the way he does it. His "missionary trips" were not to forcibly convert anyone to anything. He built houses and planted vegetable gardens for poor people in third world countries, and then played songs about Jesus on his acoustic guitar. If anyone wanted to hear more, he was up for it...if they didn't, he didn't try and make them listen. And he never tells anyone they are going to hell. He's a happy, peaceful, and generally good guy.
I know that there are far more vocal representations of the obnoxious variety of various Christian subsets, but there are a lot of 'em that are just living their lives and don't go out of their way to be arse-holes.
Just saying.
That's the key S_S: TOLERANCE
Bottom Line: If someone gets twisted up...even in the least...about others having, and/or in any way expressing, the Beliefs (or Non-Beliefs) they hold...they are NOT "open-minded", and they are NOT "tolerant".
Matter of fact, they are closed-minded, biased, intolerant, and showing prejudice toward others because they don't have their way of thinking and doing...that way of thinking and doing being theological or otherwise. That isn't a cool way to be, and it compromises the quality of societal living.
If no harm is being done (head-trips over being "bothered" by others beliefs and ways is NOT harm) by what someone else thinks and/or believes, or by practices & actions they may carry out relative to how they think or believe...then they should not have to hear anything from anybody about it EVER.
If no harm is being done (head-trips over being "bothered" by others beliefs and ways is NOT harm) by what someone else thinks and/or believes, or by practices & actions they may carry out relative to how they think or believe...then they should not have to hear anything from anybody about it EVER.
And seriously, I think we can all tell in our guts when somebody's stepping over the line into disrespect-town. There's a big difference between some sweet old lady with nothing better to do, trying to "spread the Word" and those vicious, venemous WBC people (and I'd like to tear apart more than just their worldview, thankyouverymuch!) Admittedly some of the solicitors are annoying and persistant, but they hardly seem malicious. It's pretty easy for me to just tell 'em to bugger off and then go back to not giving a damn.
I think it's a mark of maturity when you grow up and realize that the whole world of conformist "normal people" isn't out to crush your little rebellion parade, they have their own lives to live and don't give a crap what you believe or think. You're just one more monkey on the mudball, welcome to life!
But then there is the internet, where sometimes people with rigidity of opinion get outright trollish. But seriously I think most of us here are capable of enough openmindedness to have a civil conversation.
It never makes sense to call someone narrow minded just because they won't drop their convictions on the floor and agree with whatever opposing argument presents itself.
Last edited by Sonic_Spork; 01-10-2013 at 02:10 PM..
Reason: over-use of the word "seriously", seriously!
I think the division for me lies in tolerating people with personal faith. I do not go into peoples homes and tell them what to believe or not to believe. Nor do I go into churches and stand up and shout the priest down, or accost the worshipers as they leave and tell them why they just wasted an hour of theirs lives.
However I feel no compunction to "tolerate" the beliefs or ideas of those who choose to espouse them publicly. The time, passion or vehemence I will put into my replies to such people will of course be mediated by the forum they choose to do so. I have never for example accosted someone standing on a soap box in places like "Speakers Corner" in London.
When people choose to enter our halls of power, education and science however they are fair game. There not only do I not feel compelled to "respect" their opinions I actually feel the opposite. Those places are forums where ideas, theirs and mine, SHOULD be attacked, unpacked, tested, falsified and tried.
What is comical to me is the people who come to a place like this, a forum designed FOR discussion and debate, and they get in a tizzy when their ideas are discussed and debated. They retreat behind words like "tolerance" "respect" "bigotry" and more in order to silence you. Even going so far as to make up lies about you in order to attack your character for no other reason than they are unable to attack your points.
No way, no how, no chance. THIS is a discussion forum and if you air a view or belief here I am perfectly entitled to respond to it and point out the errors and flaws in it. This is not intolerance or disrespect. This is what the forum is FOR.
For those who want to air their views relatively unchallenged a forum is not the place for you. There is a whole different Internet Technology just for you. It is called "Blogging" and it is the internet answer to the Soap Box. Have at it.
But coming on to a forum and moaning when people reply to you to disagree makes as much sense to me as going onto a football pitch as a player during a game... and getting upset that someone took the ball off you. Go kick a ball against a wall on your own if that is how you want to play.
And seriously, I think we can all tell in our guts when somebody's stepping over the line into disrespect-town. There's a big difference between some sweet old lady with nothing better to do, trying to "spread the Word" and those vicious, venemous WBC people (and I'd like to tear apart more than just their worldview, thankyouverymuch!) Admittedly some of the solicitors are annoying and persistant, but they hardly seem malicious. It's pretty easy for me to just tell 'em to bugger off and then go back to not giving a damn.
I think it's a mark of maturity when you grow up and realize that the whole world of conformist "normal people" isn't out to crush your little rebellion parade, they have their own lives to live and don't give a crap what you believe or think. You're just one more monkey on the mudball, welcome to life!
But then there is the internet, where sometimes people with rigidity of opinion get outright trollish. But seriously I think most of us here are capable of enough openmindedness to have a civil conversation.
It never makes sense to call someone narrow minded just because they won't drop their convictions on the floor and agree with whatever opposing argument presents itself.
Very well stated. Some people are obviously absolutist perhaps they are born that way.
I've noticed many will accuse random strangers of some how violating their rights in order to excuse their vile behaviors but many of these same persons would not support inter-family marriages, even if all parties agreed not to reproduce.
Mankind is weird and tolerance is in the eye of the beholder.
Last edited by gabfest; 01-11-2013 at 06:09 AM..
Reason: added...to
I've noticed many will accuse random strangers of some how violating their rights in order to excuse their vile behaviors but many of these same persons would not support inter-family marriages, even if all parties agreed not to reproduce.
Mankind is weird and tolerance is in the eye of the beholder.
There is a different dynamic on the Internet. I can say something boorish or intolerant or cranky to you, and I don't have to suffer the slightest consequence in "meatspace". I won't see you tomorrow at work or chance running into you at a restaurant when I least expect it. In fact, even if we cross paths, we don't know each other's real names or how each other looks, so, still zero consequences, from you or my conscience.
It's the same phenomenon that enables "road rage". Say that someone cuts you off in traffic. If they had bumped into you in a hallway you'd accept their mumbled "excuse me" and think nothing of it. But in traffic you are king of your little domain, your bubble of power inside your car. You feel insulated. So you give them the finger. Maybe you even ride their bumper or lean on the horn. If you have particularly bad impulse control, maybe you even pull a gun out of the glove compartment and shoot it at them.
Normal person plus an audience plus anonymity = bad Internet behavior. Happens all the time.
On the other hand ... it cuts both ways. I might say something entirely respectful and matter of fact, but it happens to be something you don't agree with or like. And if you live most of your life in an echo chamber where everyone absolutely agrees with you, you might take that as cruelty or at least extreme boorishness and impertinence. On the Internet, you will be exposed to all sorts of ideas, presented well, indifferently, and badly. This is known as the Real World (tm), but on the Internet it's even more real and wild and untamable because the content is almost entirely unbounded. That's why highly controlling governments and groups keep trying in vain to find direct and indirect ways to exert their control over it; free exchange of ideas is a threat to such groups, or at least, highly inconvenient, as it causes some group members to question orthodoxy and authority that would otherwise be unopposed.
While some of the people in this forum are needlessly confrontational in my view, often, someone simply presents their thinking and someone else tries to exert the same sort of peer pressure / shaming / ostracizing they are accustomed to applying in "meatspace" because it works well to cut off inconvenient dissent. It doesn't work that well online however.
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