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Old 01-18-2013, 07:16 PM
 
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I've seen many anti-gay 'Christians' use Paul's first letter to the Romans to condemn lesbians.

Yet according to early church father St Augustine, the women Paul was referring to were having anal sex with men, not sex with other women.

St Augustine (354–430 C.E.)
"But if one has relations even with one’s wife in a part of the body which was not made for begetting children, such relations are against nature and indecent. In fact, the same apostle earlier said the same thing about the women, For their women exchanged natural relations for those which are against nature (Rom 1:26).

Augustine, Marriage and Desire 20.35 (trans. Roland Teske; ed. John E Rotelle; Answer to the Pelagians, II; New York: New City Press, 1990), 75-76.

Last edited by Ceist; 01-18-2013 at 07:29 PM..
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:29 PM
 
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Lesbian couple: Restaurant owner hands them letter condemning homosexuality | News - WCTI NewsChannel 12

The restaurant owned claimed that "God told him" to give the young married lesbian couple a handwritten semi-literate ramble telling them they were hurting everyone around them:
God said in the last days that man and womn would be lover of self, more then lover of God.
That man and woman would have unnatural effection for one another.
Then, the coming of the Son of Man, who is Jesus.
So please, look at your life. See how it hurt everyone around your.
And ask the Lord to open your eye before it to late.

The Love of Christ
P.S. my daughter also was gay. It destroy her life and my grandson.

The couple had already eaten and paid for their meal. The owner accosted them in the carpark to give them his note as they were leaving. He claims he did it out of "love".

http://blu.stb.s-msn.com/i/C8/EE6AF4..._cfzmvmigf.jpg

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Old 01-18-2013, 07:38 PM
 
19,943 posts, read 14,759,503 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax View Post
I've seen many anti-gay 'Christians' use Paul's first letter to the Romans to condemn lesbians.

Yet according to early church father St Augustine, the women Paul was referring to were having anal sex with men, not sex with other women.

St Augustine (354–430 C.E.)
"But if one has relations even with one’s wife in a part of the body which was not made for begetting children, such relations are against nature and indecent. In fact, the same apostle earlier said the same thing about the women, For their women exchanged natural relations for those which are against nature (Rom 1:26).

Augustine, Marriage and Desire 20.35 (trans. Roland Teske; ed. John E Rotelle; Answer to the Pelagians, II; New York: New City Press, 1990), 75-76.
Augustine was wrong.
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:00 PM
 
32,525 posts, read 32,874,239 times
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Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Augustine was wrong.
So we'll add his name to Jimmy Carter's on the list of all the people who have it "wrong"?
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Augustine was wrong.
And you know this how? Why is your understanding accurate and his isn't? Moderator cut: deleted

Last edited by june 7th; 01-21-2013 at 06:11 AM..
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:37 PM
 
17,853 posts, read 13,004,715 times
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Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Augustine was wrong.
You will need to explain more than just saying "he was wrong" for anyone to take your opinion seriously.

Clement of Alexandria (150-215 A.D) and Anastasius (about 400 A.D) also said the women were having anal sex with men.

So please explain exactly why you think they were "wrong" too?

Last edited by Ceist; 01-18-2013 at 09:57 PM..
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:09 PM
 
19,943 posts, read 14,759,503 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax View Post
You will need to explain more than just saying "he was wrong" for anyone to take your opinion seriously.

Clement of Alexandria (150-215 A.D) and Anastasius (about 400 A.D) also said the women were having anal sex with men.

So please explain exactly why you think they were "wrong" too?
I can read the Greek. I have access to better manuscripts. I have access to the knowledge of people much smarter than me.

I honestly don't know why those men said what they did. I know that Paul wrote that God gave them over to their degrading "pathos" and they exchanged natural relations with desires for each other (other women). That seems clear enough to me. But I know the truth is irrelevant if you really want to believe otherwise.
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:17 PM
 
17,853 posts, read 13,004,715 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
I can read the Greek. I have access to better manuscripts. I have access to the knowledge of people much smarter than me.
Cool story, but you haven't explained why you think these early church fathers were 'wrong'.
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:20 PM
 
17,853 posts, read 13,004,715 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
I can read the Greek. I have access to better manuscripts. I have access to the knowledge of people much smarter than me.

I honestly don't know why those men said what they did. I know that Paul wrote that God gave them over to their degrading "pathos" and they exchanged natural relations with desires for each other (other women). That seems clear enough to me. But I know the truth is irrelevant if you really want to believe otherwise.
The Greek says nothing at all about the women having desires for 'each other'.

διὰ τοῦτο παρέδωκεν αὐτοὺς ὁ θεὸς εἰς πάθη ἀτιμίας αἵ τε γὰρ θήλειαι αὐτῶν μετήλλαξαν τὴν φυσικὴν χρῆσιν εἰς τὴν παρὰ φύσιν

Well now you have just proven that your claim of being able to read the Greek is fallacious. And your knowledge of first century culture as well as the writings of the early church fathers is non-existent. It appears it is just your prejudice that leads you to believe these women were lesbian. It also appears that you have not bothered to read the opinions of 'people much smarter than you' on this topic.

But thanks for playing.

Last edited by Ceist; 01-18-2013 at 10:48 PM..
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:45 PM
 
17,853 posts, read 13,004,715 times
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So basically we have Paul writing about first century gentiles who had "exchanged" his God for their old pagan gods and were having "degrading" sex with each other (men with women) while worshipping idols (in the form of reptiles, 4 footed animals, birds etc).

And BECAUSE of what they were doing (using sex acts to worship pagan gods and goddesses in the form of idols), Paul's god "changed" them so that the women "exchanged" having vaginal sex with their men and now wanted to have "unnatural" anal sex with their men. And the men likewise "exchanged" having vaginal sex with their women and wanted to have anal sex with men.

Reading the Greek, and understanding the culture of the first century in which Paul wrote, it's rather obvious he is referring to first century gentiles (who would have been heterosexual) who were engaging in ritual sex acts in the pagan temples. As well as male/female vaginal sex acts, these practices also involved women and men engaging in anal sex. Women with men, and men with men. Sounds rather like a heterosexual swingers party only with the pagan cult worship thrown in.

What does ANY of this have to do with lesbians?

Or even gay men for that matter?

People who seriously think Pauls letter has anything to do with lesbians or gay men have "exchanged" rational, honest thinking for blind prejudice.

Last edited by Ceist; 01-18-2013 at 11:31 PM..
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